DM depressed about Shapechange

[FrankinLondon]

I don't agree.

The DC for the fear aura is 10 + half the sorcerer's racial hit dice + the sorcerer's Charisma bonus.

His hit points don't change, per the spell... so he has 18 class levels, and no racial hit dice.

With a Cha of, say, 22, then, his Save DC is 10 + 0 + 6, or 16.

-Hyp.

And that's another day of mine made. Well done Hypersmurf.

Frank

 

[FrankinLondon]

Yerch. That's also not the way to go.

How do your party deal with high-ac monsters? Touch attacks.
Trip, grapple, spells and the like. Use something that takes away HIS advantage, not something that is so powerful that his advantage means nothing.

Saeviomagy

With the greatest respect, you mean it's not the way you'd go. I understand the sentiment and perhaps you read into it that I was going to add 20 levels of fighter to every monster. I'm not (although actually there are monsters down the dungeon who will easily hit that A/C - just not many). When I wrote the post, I was thinking of a cleric casting Harm followed by a quickened (with a rod) dispel magic and/or a Sorcerer casting Otto's Irresistable Dance.

Trust me, I've been playing D&D for 25 years from 1st ed with the same group. I know how they think and what they want/enjoy. I simply have no experience of playing 3.5ed above 17th level.

We play a very combat oriented version of the game that is not to everyone's tastes. Because of this, we may struggle at high level 3.5 , but will have a blast finding out.

The above probably comes across as curmudgeonly and I don't mean to be. This thread's been FANTASTIC for me and while I don't have all the options open to me as a DM that I would like (due to the fact that BoBS is a pretty tight story that doesn't readily allow the introduction of Beholders and/or Big White Dragon's) I have plenty of ideas about where to go in the rewrite.

In the end, it's very important to me that the party survive the adventure and have a good time. I guess that's why I was motivated to start this thread anyway.

Keep the good ideas coming please.

Frank

 

[ruleslawyer]

The racial HD hit is a good point, but in the end, the fact is that shapechange: pit fiend does give the caster the following, assuming a 32-point "standard" sorcerer build (Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16 [20]):

+13 Dex, +13 Con
+28 (!) AC
+108 hp
Speed 40 ft, fly 60 ft (avg)
Reach
fear aura (DC [10 +0 +10 (modified Cha 30) =] 20)
DR 15/good and silver
Darkvision
Immunity to fire and poison
Acid and cold resistance 10
regeneration 5
see in darkness
SR 32
telepathy 100 ft.

Those are the really relevant benefits. The +27 Str, natural attacks, disease, improved grab, and poison are actually not that important; hit points or not, this is still a human with BAB +9 and no relevant combat feats, so engaging in melee combat is just not going to be worth it for him. Besides, it's better for him to be casting his other 9th-level spell!

Plainly, shapechange just gives too much, period. This is especially true given the fact that your sorcerer can change into any of hundreds of forms given a free ("swift") action. I think the answer is that the spell is simply unworkable as written. If you knocked off the DR and SR, and kept it to forms of CR < caster level, it'd be a bit more moderate; after all, the natural armor is really good, but not critical for a sorcerer. But the DR and SR really are too good.

 

[Asmo]

It would be cool if you could post the chars of the party, how many are they?
You say that there is 3 clerics in the party.
I´m sure you know that the adventurepath ( where BOBS is the final installment) serie was written with a generic party in mind with 4 classes: a wizard/sorc, rogue, fighter and cleric.
If you have more than 4 chars in the party, then it will be easy of course.
If you run it with 4 players it´s incredible difficult to finish.

You write "In the end, it's very important to me that the party survive the adventure and have a good time."

If your goal for them is to survive, why bother with Shapechange?
If there is no risk for them to die it can´t be much fun for them to play, YMMV as usual.


Asmo

 

[Klaus]

I guess the true point of this thread now, to help the original poster, would be "How to Alter Bastion of Broken Souls to challenge a Pit Fiend?"

Since the baddies are mainly CE half-fiends/demons, and that the Blood War is going on, I'd say the Pit Fiend would be a prime target.

 

[FrankinLondon]

It would be cool if you could post the chars of the party, how many are they?
You say that there is 3 clerics in the party.
I´m sure you know that the adventurepath ( where BOBS is the final installment) serie was written with a generic party in mind with 4 classes: a wizard/sorc, rogue, fighter and cleric.
If you have more than 4 chars in the party, then it will be easy of course.
If you run it with 4 players it´s incredible difficult to finish.

You write "In the end, it's very important to me that the party survive the adventure and have a good time."

If your goal for them is to survive, why bother with Shapechange?
If there is no risk for them to die it can´t be much fun for them to play, YMMV as usual.


Asmo

Hmmm, I'd better explain. My group and I play only 4 times a year - for 3 days solid each time. A group of 8 of us have been meeting up like this since we left college over 20 years ago. We take it in turns to host and DM. We have several parties on the go (several more retired), the highest of which we call "Lost In The Dark" who basically have run through the WoTC Adventure Path - culminating in BoBS next week.

Lost in the Dark consists of

18th Cleric
12th/6th Cleric/Fighter **
17th Barbarian (that's me!!)
17th Sorcerer **
17th Cleric **
17th Ranger **
15th/1st/1st Rogue/Wizard/Fighter
14th/3rd Fighter/Rogue **

Two of the eight can't make the next weekend because they are working abroad. I am DM'ing which leaves the 5 characters to do BoBS.

I know that BoBS was written for 4 characters, but in converting to 3.5, the demons in the module have got a lot rougher (they were wimps beforehand) so I think it balances out.

I bother with Shapechange because it's a rule and we tend not to houserule things. Even when we do, we like to test the original rules first AND require a majority vote (hard sometimes as we keep spawning new options).

The challenge at the moment is to make the dungeon competitive for all of the party including the Pitfiend.

Frank

 

[FrankinLondon]

I guess the true point of this thread now, to help the original poster, would be "How to Alter Bastion of Broken Souls to challenge a Pit Fiend?"

Since the baddies are mainly CE half-fiends/demons, and that the Blood War is going on, I'd say the Pit Fiend would be a prime target.

Now you are talking my language

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saeviomagy

With the greatest respect, you mean it's not the way you'd go. I understand the sentiment and perhaps you read into it that I was going to add 20 levels of fighter to every monster.

See, that's what I'd taken it to mean, and I think you'll agree that it would be a bad idea.

I'm not (although actually there are monsters down the dungeon who will easily hit that A/C - just not many). When I wrote the post, I was thinking of a cleric casting Harm followed by a quickened (with a rod) dispel magic and/or a Sorcerer casting Otto's Irresistable Dance.

Bingo, perfect. Playing to that characters weaknesses rather than trying to match his strengths will mean that the rest of the party remain able to contribute.

Personally I see the big balance problem with a lot of the spells available to players is that for many modules, the monsters don't have the flexibility necessary to deal with them. Against an equivalent level party, a lot of the problems simply vanish.

And, of course, vice versa. Party members without flexibility have a tough time against flexible foes.

I think a lot can be gained from ensuring that encounters have that balance between flexibility and power - building, if you will, 'adventuring groups' of monsters. A 'wizard', a 'cleric', a 'rogue' and a 'fighter' monster can often use their abilities in concert to provide a much tougher challenge than a group of identical creatures.

As an example - beholders on their own are a pushover to the average party - they just unload all thier big guns on it and it drops. Desmodu are a pushover - a party can use their abilities to stay out of range and immune to their attacks until they're whittled down. A beholder with a group of desmodu supporting it is quite nasty. The beholder can keep the fight where the desmodu can contribute, and the desmodu stop the party from blasting the beholder out of existence on the first round.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think that for the final battle in BoBS you ought to eliminate the Dydd effect and allow the big foe there (trying to avoid spoilers ) to fight at full capacity from the word go - you will already have to make major changes to his spells (since the haste tactic just won't work now) so I'd recommend running through his spell list and making obvious changes

(including *put some clerical spells in there!*. Did Bruce Cordell just forget about that little detail?). At the very least he ought to have Death Ward as one of his 4th level spells and Heal as one of his 6th level spells. In fact I'd suggest eliminating circle of death and globe of invulnerability and replacing them with Heal and Contingency. Then give him contingency(heal)

Meteor swarm was a stupid spell choice to give him - it is only half as good as his natural breath weapon that he can use every 1d4 rounds anyway! The real obvious spell for him to have is Mordenkainens Disjunction, enabling his peerless body to take out any likely foe. Failing that Miracle is another obviously good spell for him to choose, as is Time Stop (to enable himself to buff himself up fully when he first hears a party)

If you have access to the draconomicon I'd suggest giving him one or two metabreath feats too. Clinging Breath or Maximise breath are good options.

If I was Ashardalon and I saw a pit fiend or something else immune to fire I think I might do one of the following:

either:
big breath weapon to clear out the lesser foes then attack the pit fiend

or
something to discommode the pit fiend quickly. Best bet for that might be the Destruction power he has, but that is only a DC26 Fort ST. Good but not great. Most sure tactic is Blasphemy since it will send any real pit fiends away (and may get rid of shapechanged ones too) as well as preventing anyone else in the party getting an action that round (dazed or better results against everyone).

Physically the crush attack is Ashardalons best friend as that can spoil the day for a large group of people, even the pit fiend.

I don't know if any of these ideas help. Losing the two spells per round of the 3e haste is quite a loss in terms of power, these suggestions might even things up a bit.

 

[BSF]

Interesting question and I can't think of the right answer: Is SR dependent on racial HD as well? Would a shapechanged Pit Fiend in fact get the full SR?

I haven't seen or played BoBS, so I cannot speak of specifics. Plane Sailing does have a legitimate point with Clinging Breath though. I believe there is a Metabreath feat that also allows a change in energy types. Clinging breath, crush and then fight within the clinging breath area. Not the _best_ strategy, but it is difficult to cast spells in that situation.