DM Entitlement...

[Imp]

Well it can't be the wrong decision if you're okay with it!

But neither would it have been wrong for another DM to disallow the choice, especially if the DM's preferences on the matter were well known. It could be wrong for the DM to be a jerk about it but that is a separate layer to the issue.

Though it is pretty easy to reflavor a 3e "elf ninja" as "vicious trickster with magic in his veins" – a lot of the ki stuff can be cast as faerie (or not-faerie) magic. I think that'd be my angle, assuming I had a thing against elves (pretty sick of 'em) or ninjas (they're ok).

 

[Voadam]

In case anyone thinks I don't practise what I preach, here's a little anecdote.

I don't like elves. Never have. I strongly dislike the idea that a quasi-imortal race runs around with much shorter lived races and never sits back and takes a break. But, my dislike of elves pales before my loathing of ninjas. My hat of ninja no no limit. I really, really don't like ninjas.

So, when one of my players approached me with a character concept of elf ninja, I was less than impressed to say the least. I tried cajoling him into choosing another race/class, but, he was adamant that this was the concept that he wanted to play. He really liked the idea. So, I sat back and looked at my campaign, which was fairly open ended at the time and I couldn't really think of any particular reason why an elf ninja couldn't exist in the setting. Nor was there any compelling mechanical reason for banning the character.

So, I caved. I let him have the PC. And he had a great time with it.

Apparently, according to some in this thread, I made the wrong decision.

I don't think you made a wrong decision. I think you were morally free to choose to cave and allow something you disliked. I also believe however you were morally free to choose not to allow it.

As I said before "I don't like X" seems a self evidently valid reason to exclude elements from a game. Its not a moral obligation to do so though.

 

[Obryn]

Just about every post by Hussar and Cadfan in this thread? They both say repeatedly that "personal taste" isn't a valid reason for excluding some element from games.

You must be reading them way differently than I am.

I agree that both are saying "It's banned because I don't like that" is a crummy reason. Which is way different than saying "The DM can't do that."

-O

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Apparently, according to some in this thread, I made the wrong decision.

Only if you had very strong reasons- including simple deep loathing of elves and/or ninjas- not to allow the elf ninja. You said that you couldn't find a reason why not to allow the PC, so apparently your dislike of elves and/or ninjas wasn't quite deep enough to disallow the PC.

Personally, I like to play "monster" races. Almost none of my DMs allow them to be run- "PHB races only" is a common stricture, as is a similar bar on character classes. IME, I've even been in several campaigns in which Monks or Paladins have been banned (though never both). Sometimes the spellcasters get axed.

None of this bugs me.

I have a lot of PC concepts floating around- I find out what the campaign strictures are, then I adapt. I may try to convince the DM to bend, but if he doesn't, I'm not going off in a snit. I simply change my PC concepts and play.

Think of it like Jeet Kune Do for roleplaying...

Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.- Bruce Lee

Why did the DM ban X or Y or Z? Who knows. It doesn't really matter- it is part of his delineation of the campaign world.

If you actually operate within those strictures- being like water- you may actually find yourself having a good time and tapping new depths of creativity.

 

[Spatula]

True. But, appearing in Lord of the Rings does not make you mythological.

Myths have to start somewhere.

Are you saying a race descended from dragons, an ancient empire fallen into ashes, has no mythological resonances?

The complaint against dragonborn specifically comes mostly from old-school players who don't like the idea of monstrous races walking around fully integrated into "normal" society. It has nothing to do with dragon men or ancient empires. Fenes, for example, has repeatedly said that he has draconic reptile men in his homebrew, but he would ban dragonborn as they are presented in the PHB.

Monstrous races that aren't monsters goes against the preferred genre of fantasy for some - which, again, is why the "any reason is ok, other than taste" argument makes zero sense. People play around in particular genres because those genres align with their personal tastes.

 

[Spatula]

Apparently, according to some in this thread, I made the wrong decision.

The whole travesty of this thread is people thinking there are objectively right or wrong decisions when it comes to individual groups and individual tastes.

 

[Ourph]

The complaint against dragonborn specifically comes mostly from old-school players who don't like the idea of monstrous races walking around fully integrated into "normal" society.

Yeah, because it's not like 1e had rules for half-orc or drow or duergar PCs.... oh wait!

 

[wally]

Wally - When a DM has decided that his preferences trump the players, how is that not declaring "my imagination is better than yours"? When the DM has unilaterally, without any recourse, decided that no matter what, something that he personally cannot or will not envisage or imagine will exist in his campaign, he has expressly declared that his imagination trumps all. That's the same as declaring "My imagination is better than yours" IMO.

Couldn't you actually say that if they can't tolerate something due to their not liking it and not wanting to incorporate it as saying that their imagination isn't as good as yours as they aren't willing to try and see how it would work?

Not that I really buy any of that. I don't think that anyone is claiming superior imagination. That is like saying that I like x food, and since you don't therefore my taste in food is superior. (just to go back to someone else's food metaphors)

I think all that is being said is that if I am running a game of my design, or taste, then I should be able to decide what is available or not.

It also seems like you previously stated that if someone had a reason other than 'I don't like it,' you wouldn't care. How about everytime you ask someone for a reason you tell them to lie as you don't want to know if it is due to personal preference?

-wally

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Or to continue the food metaphor and put it a different way...

If I'm hosting a dinner party at the Pasand Indian Restaurant*, you can come if you want to enjoy that with me, but don't complain that beef isn't on the menu. If you don't want to show up because they don't serve beef, so be it, but don't ruin the experience for others. Maybe next time I host a dinner, I'll have it at a Brazillian churrascaria and you can gorge on beef and drown yourself in Caphirinas.

When YOU decide to host a dinner party, YOU get to choose the location and menu. Then YOU get to decide how much you want to accommodate everyone's dietary restrictions: no pork for Muslims and Jews (especially those who keep halal or kosher...er...religiously), meatless for the Vegans, low-salt for the hypertensives, low-sugar for the diabetics, macrobiotic, Atkins, etc.

*several locations in the Dallas/FW Metroplex...all good, baby!

 

[Spatula]

Yeah, because it's not like 1e had rules for half-orc or drow or duergar PCs.... oh wait!

In 1e AD&D (and LotR) half-orcs were depicted as looking like ugly humans. "...some one-tenth of orc-human mongrels are sufficiently non-orcish to pass for human. ...it is assumed that player characters which are of half-orc race are within the superior 10%..."

Duergar and drow aren't monstrous - they look just like dwarves & elves with different colorations (+baldness for the stunties) - and aren't able to operate openly in normal society, in any case.