D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

Is this true? I thought the general principle was that you can't hide behind your friends.

Yes exactly you generally can't try to hide behind a creature because you're still seen clearly, unless you're halfling, which specifically can.

Other than that anyone can try to hide anywhere when not seen clearly

 

[Maxperson]

No one is puzzled about what "though" means - and you're the one who seemed to think it important that the use was conjunctive rather than adverbial!

As I've said several times, this dispute is not linguistic. It's about how the relevant states of affairs - which in this case are circumstances within the shared fiction which correlate to various mechanical circumstances also - should be identified and understood.

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s reading, which he has made me sympathetic to, is that the halfling can vanish behind a creature - which others can't - in the same way that secret agents vanish into crowds. It leaves it open whether or not a halfling can do this while under direct observation.

Secret agents vanish into crowds while being directly observed, though. They are suddenly gone from sight.

 

[Maxperson]

Taken that everybody can try to hide behind a creature when not under direct observation it's evident that when Sage Advice says they can try to hide in situations unavailable to most other creatures it refers to it while under direct observation!

Naturally Stealthy doesn't just say a halfling can remain hidden behind a larger creature, but try to hide behind one.

Especially since there is no such thing as a remain hidden roll or remain hidden action in 5e. Everyone that hides remains hidden until a perception check discovers them. The rules don't allow for a situation where you are able to hide, and then suddenly lose the ability to hide if someone walks into the area.

What the rules do is this. One roll for everyone that hides. Everyone then remains hidden until discovered by perception or they come out of hiding on their own. This "hidden, yet not hidden" state that [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] are describing that allows only wood elves and halflings to remain hidden in certain circumstances, and reveals all others as soon as someone walks into the area, doesn't exist within the rules. Either you can hide or you can't. Either you are discovered by perception or you aren't. The racial abilities only make sense if they can be done while being observed. Otherwise they are no different than what any other race can do.

 

[pemerton]

everybody can try to hide behind a creature when not under direct observation

Yes exactly you generally can't try to hide behind a creature because you're still seen clearly

Which of these are you saying is true?

If you agree that as a general rule, you can't hide behind a creature, but that a halfling is different, then you have identified the view that [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] and I hold.

Hriston and I think it makes a difference whether or not a potential observer saw the halfling step behind his/her friend. You don't. That's it. I don't think it's that hard to understand.

Secret agents vanish into crowds while being directly observed, though. They are suddenly gone from sight.

They create, or trade upon, distractions.

EDIT:

The racial abilities only make sense if they can be done while being observed. Otherwise they are no different than what any other race can do.

Nonsense.

A human can stand in the rain, but when her friends come round the corner they will see her, no matter how still and quite she is being. On the other hand, an elf can stand in the rain, and when her friends come round the corner if she is standing still and quietly she has a chance to surprise them.

That mightn't be how you think of the abilities working, but it's completely coherent from a mechanical point of view, and the action in the fiction is completely understandable. (It's the coherence of this fiction compared to the alternative that has persuaded me to [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s view.)

 

[Xetheral]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s reading, which he has made me sympathetic to, is that the halfling can vanish behind a creature - which others can't - in the same way that secret agents vanish into crowds. It leaves it open whether or not a halfling can do this while under direct observation.

Except that Hriston has now agreed that Crawford's use of "vanish" implies a change of state (i.e. vanishing entails becoming hidden rather than staying hidden ). For reference, see the exchange ending in post #832. If Crawford was referring to the halfing's ability to become hidden in the context of the previous sentence regarding being "in full view" (which I believe, given the discussion of "though", you agree to be the proper context) then the ambiguity Hriston was originally claiming (that Crawford was referring to a halfling remaining hidden) is gone.

Is this true? I thought the general principle was that you can't hide behind your friends.

If you're not being observed, you can hide anywhere, including an open field. Doing so won't stop you from being automatically seen once you're in full view, but, prior to then, it will require others to make successful perception checks against your hide check to notice your presence by (e.g.) sound.

So yes, Crawford saying that the halfling can become hidden behind another creature while not in full view would indeed be utterly redundant, because everyone can hide behind anything (or nothing at all) if they are not in full view.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Which of these are you saying is true?

If you agree that as a general rule, you can't hide behind a creature, but that a halfling is different, then you have identified the view that [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] and I hold.

No it's not what you guys claim, instead saying the halfling can try to hide, but only when not seen clearly. So while anyone can try to hide when not seen clearly, it's even more difficult for a halfling to try if he want to try to hide behind a creature, making Naturally Stealthy harder to hide for them, rather than easier!

Hriston and I think it makes a difference whether or not a potential observer saw the halfling step behind his/her friend. You don't. That's it. I don't think it's that hard to understand.

It doesn't matter if potential observers see you step into darkness, foliage or turn invisible, if you are not seen clearly anymore (or are a halfling behind a creature or elf in foliage) you can try to hide! Why? Because that's what the special abilities let them specifically do. They are not very special if they only let them try to hide when everyone else also can try.

Normally you can't hide in plain view, a halfling , though can try to ....it's not nromal if the halfling can't also try to hide in plain view!

And then you guys argue remain hidden, vanish, preying eyes directly starring, observers etc.... all around.

 

[Maxperson]

They create, or trade upon, distractions.

I've seen countless movies where they just slip into a crowd while being observed and are gone.

A human can stand in the rain, but when her friends come round the corner they will see her, no matter how still and quite she is being. On the other hand, an elf can stand in the rain, and when her friends come round the corner if she is standing still and quietly she has a chance to surprise them.

First, then the human wasn't hidden and couldn't possibly be, so at no point was "remain hidden" a thing.

Second, the elf actually has to hide first.

Third, there is still no "remain hidden" check in 5e. The elf hides and will always under any circumstance that allows it to hide, "remain hidden" until perception checks reveal it, so the racial ability provides no extra ability to "remain hidden". It's simply a normal hide check.

Fourth, show me the rule where a human can't hide in light obscurement and is automatically revealed when someone comes around the corner? I can't find it in the rules.

That mightn't be how you think of the abilities working, but it's completely coherent from a mechanical point of view, and the action in the fiction is completely understandable. (It's the coherence of this fiction compared to the alternative that has persuaded me to @Hriston's view.)

There is no incoherence in the ability allowing them to hide while being observed, as the rules, the sage advice, and the tweet all mention. 5e is an exception based system. You're basically arguing that exceptions are incoherent in an exception based system.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Secret agents vanish into crowds while being directly observed, though. They are suddenly gone from sight.

A crowd is not the same as a single creature though, not even remotely the same for the purpose of hiding.

 

[Maxperson]

A crowd is not the same as a single creature though, not even remotely the same for the purpose of hiding.

Completely missing the point. The point is that the agent has successfully entered hiding while directly observed.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Completely missing the point. The point is that the agent has successfully entered hiding while directly observed.

Chill bro, I was just making an observation.