D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, I get your position. I just don't agree with it. The great thing about rulings is that neither of us are wrong.

Technically true. The Rules are 'Ask your DM' which is reinforced in the rules for hiding (specifically: 'your DM determines when you can hide').

I just don't understand why you would rule a hidden spy observing the PCs and then shooting a crossbow from the cover of darkness gets advantage on the attack by virtue of attacking from hiding, but one who is hidden behind a fallen log observing the PCs and then shooting around it... doesn't.

In my games both get advantage, and both reveal themselves after the attack is resolved (in accordance with RAW, and common sense).

The sniper in darkness can attempt to hide again after the attack (although his position is revealed, he is in heavy obscurement and thus can't be seen clearly by anyone, allowing him to retry at will). The sniper behind the log generally can't attempt to hide again in the same spot while being observed (he could crawl away under the cover of the log and grass to another spot and attempt to hide there however; assuming he doesn't get charged by the survivors if any before he gets there).

 

[iserith]

Technically true. The Rules are 'Ask your DM' which is reinforced in the rules for hiding (specifically: 'your DM determines when you can hide').

I just don't understand why you would rule a hidden spy observing the PCs and then shooting a crossbow from the cover of darkness gets advantage on the attack by virtue of attacking from hiding, but one who is hidden behind a fallen log observing the PCs and then shooting around it... doesn't.

In my games both get advantage, and both reveal themselves after the attack is resolved (in accordance with RAW, and common sense).

The sniper in darkness can attempt to hide again after the attack (although his position is revealed, he is in heavy obscurement and thus can't be seen clearly by anyone, allowing him to retry at will). The sniper behind the log generally can't attempt to hide again in the same spot while being observed (he could crawl away under the cover of the log and grass to another spot and attempt to hide there however; assuming he doesn't get charged by the survivors if any before he gets there).

I think it's more consistent to say when you're seen or you attack, you're no longer hidden, applying that same requirement across the board.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think it's more consistent to say when you're seen or you attack, you're no longer hidden, applying that same requirement across the board.

But the rule already does say that when you attack you are no longer hidden. If you do it from a position of hiding, you reveal yourself after the attack is made.

You're also (in many cases) still hidden when you launch the attack.

Example:

Scenario: You're walking home from a visit to your FLGS mid-afternoon; Volos Guide to Monsters safely in hand. I'm lying in wait for you on a rooftop 60' away, watching you walk down the street over the sights of a paintball gun (hidden).

Lets assume I rolled a 15 for my Stealth check. As long as your passive perception is 15 or less, you wont see me up there and I am hidden from you. If your passive perception is higher than 15, you'll notice my silhouette on the rooftop, catch a glimpse of the reflection of the guns scope, hear me let out a cough, or otherwise notice me somehow.

If you notice me, I'm not hidden (and as we are now aware of each other, combat starts and initiative is rolled). In this case, If I win initiative and go first on round 1, I can still shoot you, but don't have advantage on the check (I'm not hidden). If you go first, you get to bolt to cover [use your movement to move 30' and then use the dash action to move another 30'] and yell at me to stop acting like a jerk and put the paintball gun down.

If you don't notice me up there with my sights trained on you, I get to shoot you with my paintball gun. Lets assume I decide to do so, and pull the trigger' thus starting the combat sequence. We both roll initiative, and (as you are unaware of me) you are surprised and don't get to act on turn 1.

Lets assume you roll higher on initiative (I'm a clutz in real life, so my Dex isnt the highest). You suddenly get the sense that something is very wrong, as you hear a strange popping sound coming from a roof 60' away and hear some loud laughing in what sounds like an Australian accent. Unfortunately as you are surprised, you cant act or move on your turn one. Your turn ends with you having a sinking feeling, but unable to do anything about it. From now on you can take reactions.

My turn 1 comes about. I now get to resolve my action. As I was hidden when I made my attack, I get to make my attack roll with advantage. The range on my paintball gun is 70' so we're all good there (no disadvantage for range to cancel out the advantage for being hidden). I'm proficient in the paintball gun, but my Dex isn't great. Lets assume (thanks to advantage) I just manage to scrape in a hit. It does no damage, but does leave a bright orange stain on your new shirt.

Now, (as soon as the attack is resolved) I am no longer hidden. Your brain finally starts to process what is going on, and between the sound of the shot, the laughter as I reveal myself, the trajectory of the stinging paintball and your sudden sense of 'damn what the heck!' shaking you into hyper-awareness, you see a grinning 40 year old Aussie guy on a rooftop, holding a paintball gun, and running away at high speed (I used my movement after the attack, to flee along the rooftops!).

Round 1 ends, Round 2 begins, and its now your turn.

See how it all comes together?

 

[Flamestrike]

Incidentally in the above example, If I had the Skulker feat and missed you on turn 1, you'd notice a bright orange splash on the ground in front of you, and hear a popping sound from somewhere near you, but wouldn't otherwise know where I was.

In this case, I would assume you would probably (on turn 2) move 30' to cover, and (once there) use the Search action (frantically scanning the rooftops, and other possible hiding spots for me).

If you rolled a 15+ on your perception check, you would see me up on the rooftop, peering over the edge and aiming anther shot at you (and I cease to be hidden).

 

[iserith]

But the rule already does say that when you attack you are no longer hidden. If you do it from a position of hiding, you reveal yourself after the attack is made.

You're also (in many cases) still hidden when you launch the attack.

Example:

Scenario: You're walking home from a visit to your FLGS mid-afternoon; Volos Guide to Monsters safely in hand. I'm lying in wait for you on a rooftop 60' away, watching you walk down the street over the sights of a paintball gun (hidden).

Lets assume I rolled a 15 for my Stealth check. As long as your passive perception is 15 or less, you wont see me up there and I am hidden from you. If your passive perception is higher than 15, you'll notice my silhouette on the rooftop, catch a glimpse of the reflection of the guns scope, hear me let out a cough, or otherwise notice me somehow.

If you notice me, I'm not hidden (and as we are now aware of each other, combat starts and initiative is rolled). In this case, If I win initiative and go first on round 1, I can still shoot you, but don't have advantage on the check (I'm not hidden). If you go first, you get to bolt to cover [use your movement to move 30' and then use the dash action to move another 30'] and yell at me to stop acting like a jerk and put the paintball gun down.

If you don't notice me up there with my sights trained on you, I get to shoot you with my paintball gun. Lets assume I decide to do so, and pull the trigger' thus starting the combat sequence. We both roll initiative, and (as you are unaware of me) you are surprised and don't get to act on turn 1.

Lets assume you roll higher on initiative (I'm a clutz in real life, so my Dex isnt the highest). You suddenly get the sense that something is very wrong, as you hear a strange popping sound coming from a roof 60' away and hear some loud laughing in what sounds like an Australian accent. Unfortunately as you are surprised, you cant act or move on your turn one. Your turn ends with you having a sinking feeling, but unable to do anything about it. From now on you can take reactions.

My turn 1 comes about. I now get to resolve my action. As I was hidden when I made my attack, I get to make my attack roll with advantage. The range on my paintball gun is 70' so we're all good there (no disadvantage for range to cancel out the advantage for being hidden). I'm proficient in the paintball gun, but my Dex isn't great. Lets assume (thanks to advantage) I just manage to scrape in a hit. It does no damage, but does leave a bright orange stain on your new shirt.

Now, (as soon as the attack is resolved) I am no longer hidden. Your brain finally starts to process what is going on, and between the sound of the shot, the laughter as I reveal myself, the trajectory of the stinging paintball and your sudden sense of 'damn what the heck!' shaking you into hyper-awareness, you see a grinning 40 year old Aussie guy on a rooftop, holding a paintball gun, and running away at high speed (I used my movement after the attack, to flee along the rooftops!).

Round 1 ends, Round 2 begins, and its now your turn.

See how it all comes together?

I would say you get the benefit of me being surprised and that's it. If you were attacking me from a position of me not being able to see you, such as if you were in darkness that wasn't also hindering you, then you'd have advantage as well and hidden goes away when your attack is resolved. Otherwise, when you pop out to attack such that I can see you, you're no longer hidden and don't have advantage. But I'm still surprised.

 

[Flamestrike]

I would say you get the benefit of me being surprised and that's it. If you were attacking me from a position of me not being able to see you, such as if you were in darkness that wasn't also hindering you, then you'd have advantage as well and hidden goes away when your attack is resolved. Otherwise, when you pop out to attack such that I can see you, you're no longer hidden and don't have advantage. But I'm still surprised.

Can see me doesn't = does see me.

A hidden creature lying on a rooftop and spying on a bunch of orcs by peeking over the top isn't automatically revealed, any more than he is peeking around a tree and watching them. They dont automatically notice him (they might if their passive perception is higher than his stealth result though, or one of them suddenly has a look around for possible spies and rolls perception via the Search action and beats the Rogues stealth result).

From the errata:

The question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly.

https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf

Peeking around a fallen log you're hiding behind and watching what an enemy is doing, or aiming a crossbow at them stealthily doesn't automatically reveal yourself or ruin your hiding attempt.

The general rule is that creatures are aware of nearby combatants. But there is also the specific rule that you don't need to be 100 percent 'unseen' to remain hidden, you just need to be 'unable to be seen clearly'.

Apply common sense here.

You can stand behind a tree peering through a gap in the branches, or through a hole in the fence, or peek around your fallen log and stay hidden. You remain hidden in this instance until you either give your position away by making an attack (and the attack is made with advantage before revealing your position as per the rules on attacking from hiding), the critters you're watching take the Search action and find you, or you otherwise reveal your position (standing up and calling out to them or whatever).

 

[Harzel]

Example:

Scenario: You're walking home from a visit to your FLGS mid-afternoon; Volos Guide to Monsters safely in hand.
<snip>
I just manage to scrape in a hit. It does no damage, but does leave a bright orange stain on your new shirt.

Thank goodness it was the shirt and not the book!!!

 

[Flamestrike]

Thank goodness it was the shirt and not the book!!!

I promise @iserith that in the next example he gets to nail me with a paintball gun!

 

[cooperjer]

Interesting. ....

My reading of the rules indicates that the rogue generally needs heavy obscurement by which he or she isn't impacted (such as having darkvision and firing at a target that does not have darkvision or has a lesser range e.g. drow vs. dwarf) to pull off an attack from hiding. This seems to me in line with the Skulker feat as well. Cover is generally going to cause the rogue to "pop out" and become seen and thus no longer hidden.

Question out of curiosity for those of you who disagree: Did you run or play D&D 4e?

I did not run or play 4E. I feel the rules allow a character to look around a corner or other obstacle with a clear line of sight to a target without being detected if they are hidden and the stealth roll exceeds the passive perception of the other NPCs. This may be a quick glance, potentially half the body actually being seen. To now allow that same hidden character to make an attack with a ranged weapon and not be seen until after the attack is made seems plausible, in my mind.

If the character is making a melee attack and has to traverse a distance in the open then there is increased risk of the character being seen by the NPC; however, I feel you and I are in the same line of thinking regarding goal and motive allowing a player to state the goal and general process without stating the exact details of that process. In this case if the process described allowed the character to stay hidden until it made it to the goal, i.e. melee range of the NPC, then it may be able to attack from being hidden.

 

[iserith]

Can see me doesn't = does see me.

A hidden creature lying on a rooftop and spying on a bunch of orcs by peeking over the top isn't automatically revealed, any more than he is peeking around a tree and watching them. They dont automatically notice him (they might if their passive perception is higher than his stealth result though, or one of them suddenly has a look around for possible spies and rolls perception via the Search action and beats the Rogues stealth result).

From the errata:

The question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly.

https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf

Peeking around a fallen log you're hiding behind and watching what an enemy is doing, or aiming a crossbow at them stealthily doesn't automatically reveal yourself or ruin your hiding attempt.

The general rule is that creatures are aware of nearby combatants. But there is also the specific rule that you don't need to be 100 percent 'unseen' to remain hidden, you just need to be 'unable to be seen clearly'.

Apply common sense here.

You can stand behind a tree peering through a gap in the branches, or through a hole in the fence, or peek around your fallen log and stay hidden. You remain hidden in this instance until you either give your position away by making an attack (and the attack is made with advantage before revealing your position as per the rules on attacking from hiding), the critters you're watching take the Search action and find you, or you otherwise reveal your position (standing up and calling out to them or whatever).

I still think my interpretation is better and neatly avoids some of the issues some DMs have with rogues and the particular tactic they try to use. It makes it a little bit harder - more situational really - to get advantage on attacks as compared to how you make your rulings. In all likelihood, the rogue is still going to cause the target to be surprised, but simply doesn't get advantage. That's a big tactical boon. If we were playing D&D 4e, I would certainly rule the way you are here, but my reading of D&D 5e, conflicting tweets and all, tells me that my interpretation is just fine.