D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

If something is "lightly obscured," you consider it to still be "seen clearly." I don't. The usage of those words have meaning to me. Where does that leave us?

It leaves Wood Elf and Skulker feat user signature ability being diminished by allowing anyone to hide while lightly obscured when it's supposed to be special to do so. That's what it does if you say you are not seen clearly when lightly obscured...

It's evident the rules in general are not allowing anyone to hide when lightly obscured by default if the have feat or features instead allowing it specifically. It's General vs Specific in it's most basic form!

 

[Corwin]

It leaves Wood Elf and Skulker feat user signature ability being diminished by allowing anyone to hide while lightly obscured when it's supposed to be special to do so. That's what it does if you say you are not seen clearly when lightly obscured...

When you ignore one crucial part of the errata/clarification, while focusing on the other, this is where you end up, IMO.

It's evident the rules in general are not allowing anyone to hide when lightly obscured by default if the have feat or features instead allowing it specifically.

Actually, again, the rules don't *ever* allow anyone to hide. The DM does. Per the rules.

It's General vs Specific in it's most basic form!

I'll see your "General vs. Specific," and raise you a "Rulings not Rules."

 

[Plaguescarred]

When you ignore one crucial part of the errata/clarification, while focusing on the other, this is where you end up, IMO.

It's not ignoring anything since the errata didn't provide any rule significance to what seen CLEARLY actually means. I believe it was introduce to help people wrap their head around special abilities that allow one to hide while still seen like the Skulker, elf and halfling.

Actually, again, the rules don't *ever* allow anyone to hide. The DM does. Per the rules.

I'll see your "General vs. Specific," and raise you a "Rulings not Rules."

The rules do say when someone can or cannot hide and the DM either rule as is ou houserule it.

Finally, there is Sage Advice to further clarify stuff for people who might still be unsure of some rules.

 

[Uller]

It leaves Wood Elf and Skulker feat user signature ability being diminished by allowing anyone to hide while lightly obscured when it's supposed to be special to do so. That's what it does if you say you are not seen clearly when lightly obscured...

It's evident the rules in general are not allowing anyone to hide when lightly obscured by default if the have feat or features instead allowing it specifically. It's General vs Specific in it's most basic form!

No it doesn't. The first paragraph of the rules on hiding matters. The DM decides if it is appropriate AND if you can be seen clearly you cannot hide. Sometimes the DM has to take all factors into account and decide.

Looking out my window is a bush with no leaves. Behind it is snow. If a person was standing behind it and wearing dark clothing, I could still see him clearly enough to make hiding impossible. If he were wearing winter camo, crouching down and staying still then he could certainly hide and remain hidden even if I looked directly at him.

That first sentence is there to let DMs know it is okay to apply some common sense. If you are reading the rules as saying that only a heavily obscured character can hide then I think you are probably being just a wee too stringent. But that's just me.

 

[Corwin]

It's not ignoring anything since the errata didn't provide any rule significance to what seen CLEARLY actually means. I believe it was introduce to help people wrap their head around special abilities that allow one to hide while still seen like the Skulker, elf and halfling.

The rules do say when someone can or cannot hide and the DM either rule as is ou houserule it.

Finally, there is Sage Advice to further clarify stuff for people who might still be unsure of some rules.

Errata:

Hiding (p. 177). The text clarifies that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding, and the first sentence of the second paragraph starts as follows: “You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly …”

See the first part where it says, "The text clarifies that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding,"? The DM decides? That's the part you seemed to neglect in your first response to me. That's the part I said you ignored. That's the part explaining that the hiding rules *never* "allow" anyone to hide. The DM does. Hope that clarifies my point.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Sure a DM can always decide what is appropriate for hiding or not, including that anyone can hide while lightly obscured because they're not seen clearly.

But the rules originally don't specifically allow that, and the Sage Advice clarify that as well when saying that normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view but that a wood elf can try to hide. And a halfling. It says that because normally when lightly obscured, you can't hide as per the rules, unless you have an exceptional feat or features letting you do so, like Skulker or Mask of the Wild. Because if it would there would be no need to have such features, or a Sage Advice clarifying it.

DM can always rule otherwise , but it gives the power of such abilities to anyone when doing so. What's supposed to be an exception becomess a norm that's all.

 

[Plaguescarred]

The Sage Advice statement:

"Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf!"Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures,"

Seem to suggest that while obscured by a creature or foliage, you're still in plain view and thus seen clearly and only them are capable of hiding this way, but anyone.

 

[Corwin]

The Sage Advice statement:

"Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf!"Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures,"

Seem to suggest that while obscured by a creature or foliage, you're still in plain view and thus seen clearly and only them are capable of hiding this way, but anyone.

Those people, who love to get hung up on parsing rules wording and breaking down definitions, are going to have a field day with what you are quoting and saying. After all, "full view," or "plain view," are not necessarily the same as "seen clearly." They share zero words in common!

 

[Uller]

DM can always rule otherwise , but it gives the power of such abilities to anyone when doing so. What's supposed to be an exception becomess a norm that's all.

No. We aren't saying that if you are lightly obscured you can automatically hide. You have to have mitigating factors that make hiding appropriate. That's the point of the rules as they are written. They don't require making assumptions about special rules like MotW.

A character that is in the woods (light obscurement) can hide while out of sight of the observer (heavy obscurement) and then remain hidden when that observer gains LOS. Any character can do this. This matches my RL experience. Anyone that has ever played in the woods as a child would know this. A wood-elf doesn't have to break LOS. He can hide just be being lightly obscured even while being stared at. But other factors might prevent it...he's wearing jingle bells and is moving, he has brightly colored clothes that contrast with his surroundings. His light obscurement is a fern in the corner of the office....It is up to the DM to decide if it's appropriate. A normal character might be able to hide in the woods without breaking LOS...but it would require some mitigating factor...maybe a significant distraction on the part of the observer.

Anyone can lose someone following them in a city by ducking around a corner and then mixing into a crowded market. A halfling doesn't have to bother with the ducking around the corner part as long as some of the people in the market are a size larger than him. A normal character would require some other mitigating factor to attempt to hide in a crowd while the observer has LOS. Again...a distraction or something.

What others seem to be saying...maybe I'm missing it...is that you can only hide while heavily obscured because you can see someone clearly in light obscurement AND once you are only lightly obscured you are no longer hidden. That makes the word "clearly" redundant because under what circumstance can a character be seen but not seen clearly if not in light obscurement?

 

[Uller]

The Sage Advice statement:

"Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf!"Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures,"

Seem to suggest that while obscured by a creature or foliage, you're still in plain view and thus seen clearly and only them are capable of hiding this way, but anyone.

So only a wood-elf can hide in the bushes?

Under what circumstances is a character seen but not seen clearly if not while lightly obscured? Doesn't your interpretation make the word "clearly" redundant at best and add to the confusion at worst?

Are you suggesting that in order to understand the general rules on hiding you must first understand the specific rules like MotW?