DM needs some assistance with encounter building

[marelion]

Hi, folks,

I`ve been DMing for a group of friends a couple of times now in a Paragon Campaign and quite frankly, the party composition gives me the creeps. The synergies are amazing and they can effictively shut down anything I throw at them.

We have a Drow Rogue/Daggermaster (Artful Dodger) who can dish out some serious hurt but is played by a rather unexperienced player. He is the only striker in a party of 5, but he is quite capable.

Next we have a Tiefling Ardent/Argent Soul (MC into Runepriest, mainly for Shield of Sacrifice). Nothing too impressive, save for the Ability to lower defenses a couple of times per encounter by spending some Power Points. The player tries to dabble in the territory of an assistant-striker, but despite the fact she could theoretically deliver d12s for damage rols and has a high-crit Weapon she is hardly a threat due to constant misses. She rolls poorly and the +2-proficiency bonus of her War Pick does not help either.

We have a Eladrin Psion/Timebender. After some initial problems the player (who normally is the DM) managed to adjust his play style to Psionists and is an effective, but not outstanding controller. He uses Psychic Lock and additionally he spams Mindthrust, Ego Whip and Dishearten. Add in the abilities of our Ardent and you can see where this is going. Still, no complaints from my side. He is a controller and debuffing is his job.

Then we have a Brawler Fighter/Avernian Knight, who has a Fortitude Score of 32(!) at Level 12. His close-quarter control is amazing and the player has picked up some encounter powers to knock prone and daze. Here things start to get messy. He has Figter`s Gritt to ignore 90% of all conditions for two entire turns and his grab is nearly unbreakable, even monsters with high strength who are trained in Athletics need to roll ~14+ to break free (assuming Level 14, Strenght 22) and then he gets to trigger his utility powers which allow him to stay close to the target. Not to mention the fact they have to spend a move action, so it`s essientelly at-will action denial. I find it very hard to design interstimg encounters for this type of fighter because the majority of monsters lacks the ability to escape from his grab reliably, save for those who slide or daze at-will. He is very sticky with Toughness, Lightning Reflexes and Plate Armor, so it is hard to bring him down on his knees. In theory, I could ignore his mark quite easily, but the group has a second fighter and the Daggermaster, who is the squishy in the party fights from range. meaning melee monsters or ranged attackers have to move and provoke, which leads to them being grabbed again.

If you have thought things could hardly get worse for a DM you`re wrong, because the second fighter is a rather uninspired Sword and Board Fighter/Iron Star Marauder. Reaping Strike allows for another -2 penalty to attack rolls, so Elites or Solos are often down by -4 on their first attack each turn. He can silde 2 squares with OAs which shuts down skirmishers very quickly and the shifty types get grabbed by the Brawler. He is planning to take a feat to increase the mark penalty to -3. -7 on the first attack against anyone who is not the fighter and -4 against a fighter with an AC of 31. Horray

I`ve tried lots of tactics and failed.The fights were all rather uninspiring so far and it is getting frustrating for me and the players as well.

Do you have some advice on monster tactics, terrain or encounter composition to challenge this party in a fun encounter. I`m not out to kill them, YET!!! I only want to show them a good time, mind you. Despite my troubles about keeping them busy they are a fun group to play with!

Looking forward to some enlightning answers

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I love 4e, but the game is getting bloated by splats. I don't recognize half of this stuff. (Not controlling sources might be the source of your problem.)

Hi, folks,

I`ve been DMing for a group of friends a couple of times now in a Paragon Campaign and quite frankly, the party composition gives me the creeps. The synergies are amazing and they can effictively shut down anything I throw at them.

We have a Drow Rogue/Daggermaster (Artful Dodger) who can dish out some serious hurt but is played by a rather unexperienced player. He is the only striker in a party of 5, but he is quite capable.

From my recollection, very high defenses (especially against opportunity attacks) is the Artful Dodger's thing.

Next we have a Tiefling Ardent/Argent Soul (MC into Runepriest, mainly for Shield of Sacrifice). Nothing too impressive, save for the Ability to lower defenses a couple of times per encounter by spending some Power Points. The player tries to dabble in the territory of an assistant-striker, but despite the fact she could theoretically deliver d12s for damage rols and has a high-crit Weapon she is hardly a threat due to constant misses. She rolls poorly and the +2-proficiency bonus of her War Pick does not help either.

What is an Argent Soul? I assume that's a Paragon Path. I'm not very familiar with the Ardent.

We have a Eladrin Psion/Timebender. After some initial problems the player (who normally is the DM) managed to adjust his play style to Psionists and is an effective, but not outstanding controller. He uses Psychic Lock and additionally he spams Mindthrust, Ego Whip and Dishearten. Add in the abilities of our Ardent and you can see where this is going. Still, no complaints from my side. He is a controller and debuffing is his job.

Can I assume the Timebender is a paragon path? I don't where there that's from. I recognize those powers except for Psychic Lock... I don't know what that does.

Then we have a Brawler Fighter/Avernian Knight, who has a Fortitude Score of 32(!) at Level 12. His close-quarter control is amazing and the player has picked up some encounter powers to knock prone and daze. Here things start to get messy. He has Figter`s Gritt to ignore 90% of all conditions for two entire turns and his grab is nearly unbreakable, even monsters with high strength who are trained in Athletics need to roll ~14+ to break free (assuming Level 14, Strenght 22) and then he gets to trigger his utility powers which allow him to stay close to the target. Not to mention the fact they have to spend a move action, so it`s essientelly at-will action denial. I find it very hard to design interstimg encounters for this type of fighter because the majority of monsters lacks the ability to escape from his grab reliably, save for those who slide or daze at-will. He is very sticky with Toughness, Lightning Reflexes and Plate Armor, so it is hard to bring him down on his knees. In theory, I could ignore his mark quite easily, but the group has a second fighter and the Daggermaster, who is the squishy in the party fights from range. meaning melee monsters or ranged attackers have to move and provoke, which leads to them being grabbed again.

I believe the brawler sets his escape DC equal to his Fort defense. Pretty nasty, but any defender can effectively immobilize opponents that he hits. (There's minions that can do that.)

What is Fighter's Grit and what does it do? Where is it from?

Same with Avernian Knight.

I don't know how his Reflex makes him sticky. His Reflex defense should be decent, his Will defense low, and he's a big hulking guy... target his mind.

If you have thought things could hardly get worse for a DM you`re wrong, because the second fighter is a rather uninspired Sword and Board Fighter/Iron Star Marauder. Reaping Strike allows for another -2 penalty to attack rolls, so Elites or Solos are often down by -4 on their first attack each turn. He can silde 2 squares with OAs which shuts down skirmishers very quickly and the shifty types get grabbed by the Brawler. He is planning to take a feat to increase the mark penalty to -3. -7 on the first attack against anyone who is not the fighter and -4 against a fighter with an AC of 31. Horray

I thought Reaping Strike simply did damage on a miss. There is a feat that makes marks worse if you have a shield, I think that's what you're referring to. Where are all these attack penalties and "super marks" coming from? How does he slide opponents with his opportunity attacks?

I`ve tried lots of tactics and failed.The fights were all rather uninspiring so far and it is getting frustrating for me and the players as well.

Do you have some advice on monster tactics, terrain or encounter composition to challenge this party in a fun encounter. I`m not out to kill them, YET!!! I only want to show them a good time, mind you. Despite my troubles about keeping them busy they are a fun group to play with!

Looking forward to some enlightning answers

Need more info. I found my encounters got nastier when I noticed that everyone had cranked their ACs some, while their NADs were generally weak (although distributed). I simply gave a lot of non-casting NPCs attacks vs NADs. For instance, a dwarf fighter-type NPC with Tide of Iron would target Fort rather than AC, while a spear-wielding fighter-type would have Armor-Piercing Strike as an at-will (damage as at-will, not encounter). However, that wouldn't help much with this party. It seems moderately optimized.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6679828]marelion[/MENTION]
It sounds like you need to throw some more varied challenges at the group. Here are my suggestions:

Monsters that cause forced movement, cause action denial (daze, stun, dominate), can teleport, or have other means to break grabs

Monsters with damaging auras / monsters that deal damage when grabbed (use sparingly)

Teams of monsters that work very well together

Flying monsters

Artillery on hard to reach perches or otherwise protected / hard to reach

Combats which require PCs to move to different zones due to quest objectives or hazards

Combats where one or more of the fighters need to be next to an NPC as bodyguards

Customize elites and solos to give them more better ways to shake off conditions

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not fond of psionics, so can't help much there.

I did play a brawling fighter for a while and they are a lot of fun. They have some limitations, though. For one, their grabby powers require a free hand, so they can't go grabbing multiple enemies. For instance, if he uses Grappling Strike as his OA, he grabs the first guy that provokes, but not the second - if he took Combat Superiority that doesn't help much, so it depends on how conventional a brawler he is. You can be a lockdown artist vs a single foe, but most fighters are already pretty sticky. Vs multiple enemies, he shouldn't have a disproportionate impact. Grabbing is also a two-way street. The grab'll end if he moves away or doesn't use a grabby power each round, so he's effectively locked down, too. Monsters with nasty auras could also make the whole grabbing thing seem like not such a great idea.

The second fighter has some style feats or something to stack up mark penalties? Remember those apply only to attacks that don't target /him/, so area attacks and even multi-attacks can largely negate it for anyone else caught by 'em. I can see how the brawler can be tough on skirmishers, but most skirmishers don't provoke, so slide on an OA shouldn't be that bad for them.

It sounds like the Rogue isn't part of the problem, and that's the only other one I could help you with. sorry


More generally, just try using varied and interesting encounters. You'll find something that makes 'em work for it or at least is interesting. Think about why and use those factors again (sparingly) when needed. For solos and elites, look at the MM3 and MV, they have more action-preservation features. It sounds like larger groups of standard monsters and minions might be more of a challenge, too, since they seem to go for single-target lockdowns.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Another thing to remember is that although untyped benefits always stack unless they are from the same "source", untyped penalties NEVER stack - so its unlikely that the two effects you describe would stack (although, if one is a penalty to enemy's defences and the other a bonus to allies to hit, they would).

As well, another way to reduce the problems you discussed is to have enemies coming from several directions - its much more difficult for the fighter to defend the squishies that way, and if you have a prime baddie who engages after his other forces and from a different dirrection, it may be difficult for the fighter to disengage from whoever he then as grabbed to go after the big bad.

 

[marelion]

Thanks for all the input, keep the ideas coming I´m a little busy at the moment, but I'll respond to all your questions tomorrow.

 

[Storminator]

I've only DMed up to high Heroic, so you've probably got some issues I haven't seen.

But most of my really challenging combats I've used Auras, Bursts, and Blasts. Those allow you to hit PCs without worrying about violating marks. Putting people in overlapping auras with ongoing damage can really rack up some damage quick.

I've also had some success with seriously focused fire. Have every single enemy attack one PC. Even in a fight that doesn't turn out to be that hard, that one round gets a player's attention!

PS

 

[Jhaelen]

Another thing to remember is that although untyped benefits always stack unless they are from the same "source", untyped penalties NEVER stack

Uh, really? I thought penalties always stacked unless they're from the same 'named effect'?

 

[marelion]

What is an Argent Soul? I assume that's a Paragon Path. I'm not very familiar with the Ardent.

Yupp, quite right. Nothing to spectacular, save for the level 16-ability to score critical hits on 19+ with Ardent Powers

Can I assume the Timebender is a paragon path? I don't where there that's from. I recognize those powers except for Psychic Lock... I don't know what that does.

Timebender is from Psionic Power. In our group we allow all PHBs and the 'Power Books'.

What is Fighter's Grit and what does it do? Where is it from? Fighter's Grit is a minor action encounter utility power for Lvl 10 Fighters from MP 2 that lets you ignore the effect of the dazed, weakened, slowed or immobilized conditon.
Same with Avernian Knight.

Avernian Knight is from MP 2 as well, nets you an ecounter teleport of 5 squares and at level 16 enemies ignoring your mark take 5+Con-modifier fire damage.

I don't know how his Reflex makes him sticky. His Reflex defense should be decent, his Will defense low, and he's a big hulking guy... target his mind.

Well, he has two entire turns where he isn`t dazed and most attacks vs Wil either daze or impose minor penalties to attack rolls or dfenses. But yes, targeting his mind is a good idea.

I thought Reaping Strike simply did damage on a miss. There is a feat that makes marks worse if you have a shield, I think that's what you're referring to. Where are all these attack penalties and "super marks" coming from? How does he slide opponents with his opportunity attacks?

Battering Shield and Sweeping Flail, IIRC. And these attack roll penalties come from his mark (-2) and Reaping Strike (-2), so he can at-will lower attack rolls by -4 (assuming he hits). With nasty elites and solos, the brwaler grabs them and the Swoard ands Board Fighter marks and then shifts away...Has not been to effective, since they are currently fighting a bunch of Yuan-Ti, so most enemies have reach.[/QUOTE]

Need more info. I found my encounters got nastier when I noticed that everyone had cranked their ACs some, while their NADs were generally weak (although distributed). I simply gave a lot of non-casting NPCs attacks vs NADs. For instance, a dwarf fighter-type NPC with Tide of Iron would target Fort rather than AC, while a spear-wielding fighter-type would have Armor-Piercing Strike as an at-will (damage as at-will, not encounter). However, that wouldn't help much with this party. It seems moderately optimized.

What information do you need?

@marelion
It sounds like you need to throw some more varied challenges at the group. Here are my suggestions:

Monsters that cause forced movement, cause action denial (daze, stun, dominate), can teleport, or have other means to break grabs

Monsters with damaging auras / monsters that deal damage when grabbed (use sparingly)

Teams of monsters that work very well together

Flying monsters

Artillery on hard to reach perches or otherwise protected / hard to reach

Combats which require PCs to move to different zones due to quest objectives or hazards

Combats where one or more of the fighters need to be next to an NPC as bodyguards

Customize elites and solos to give them more better ways to shake off conditions

These are some neat ideas. I`ll think about them and post an example encounter, making use of al the input from the thread's participants

I'm not fond of psionics, so can't help much there.

The second fighter has some style feats or something to stack up mark penalties? Remember those apply only to attacks that don't target /him/, so area attacks and even multi-attacks can largely negate it for anyone else caught by 'em. I can see how the brawler can be tough on skirmishers, but most skirmishers don't provoke, so slide on an OA shouldn't be that bad for them.


More generally, just try using varied and interesting encounters. You'll find something that makes 'em work for it or at least is interesting. Think about why and use those factors again (sparingly) when needed. For solos and elites, look at the MM3 and MV, they have more action-preservation features. It sounds like larger groups of standard monsters and minions might be more of a challenge, too, since they seem to go for single-target lockdowns.

This is a neat idea, maybe I should really start to swarm them with standard monsters.

Another thing to remember is that although untyped benefits always stack unless they are from the same "source", untyped penalties NEVER stack - so its unlikely that the two effects you describe would stack (although, if one is a penalty to enemy's defences and the other a bonus to allies to hit, they would).

Well, PHB says otherwise: On page 275 it reads: 'Penalties do not have a type. They stack unless they are from the same source

As well, another way to reduce the problems you discussed is to have enemies coming from several directions - its much more difficult for the fighter to defend the squishies that way, and if you have a prime baddie who engages after his other forces and from a different dirrection, it may be difficult for the fighter to disengage from whoever he then as grabbed to go after the big bad.

I'm starting to think it is time for a wave encounter

Uh, really? I thought penalties always stacked unless they're from the same 'named effect'?

Yupp, you`re right.

Conclusion

I'll need a swarmy encounter, where the PCs are under attack from all directions. Some of the monsters will be able to fly and I will include some nasty terrain effects to combine your advice into a rock-solid fun encounter!

I'll post my idea shortly, just have to build a suitable map so you can take a look at the terrain as well.

Thanks a bunch for all the input, Im already looking forward to some future input

 

[Dragonblade]

Hmm, some of the math looks off. Can you break down how the fighter has a Fort of 32?

And it seems like you are allowing fighters to stack marks which they shouldn't be able to do.

Also, if you are running pre-MM3 monsters, give all your monsters +5 damage per attack per tier. So paragon monsters should be doing an additional +10 damage per attack. This will bring them in line with WotC's updated monster math and will make them a bigger threat to your party.

Also, be sure to take advantage of monster synergies and play them just as co-operatively and ruthlessly as the players do. I generally ignore marks, eat the penalty, and focus fire on the leaders and controllers and force the defenders and strikers to react to my offensive, rather than letting the players dictate the flow of battle.

It also might help to boost your monster's levels. If your players are a well oiled machine and just walking through encounters of their level even with the changes I mentioned above, then start gradually increasing their "effective" level. And by that, I mean build your encounters the same, but give your monsters a +1 to all rolls and defenses. If thats still too weak, then give them an additional +1 and so on, until you have reached a threat level that you are happy with for the encounter. Not every encounter should be a fight to the death, but once you know how much of a numerical bonus you need to shift things to that point, it will liberate you to adjust encounter difficulty on the fly without having to work too hard to design encounters. If your players start getting frustrated by missing too much, then just grant the bonus to attack and only give a lesser bonus to monster defenses. Tweak as needed.