D&D 5E [DM problem] Is the group I am leading too strong? Is the 5E system unbalanced?

[mflayermonk]

That is talking about using that as a method for thinking about challenge rating.
It says nothing about actually messing with monster's stats.

If you buff the hit points that way, then it takes just as long as it did before to kill with mundane weapons (because the effect is the same), but it now takes much longer than it did before with HP damage spells or magic weapons (because the HPs are now so much more).

So, the effect is you just turned a thing that was easier to kill with magic into one that's harder to kill with magic.

I see. Damage resistance b/p/s is worse than just having the normal hit points for the monster in campaigns with a lot of magic items.

 

[Oofta]

Using that as the baseline was a bad decision. I wonder how many tables use no magic items? A couple percent of the tables overall? And at my table its not feats that are putting things over the top. Its just the way the game is, monsters are very easy to hit and its pretty easy to do a lot of damage. And due to the low AC values adding in one more PC just blows things up. Seeing how my 6 man 10th level party did against a demon price I'm not sure there will be much to do once they hit 13-14th level unless they put out a new god stats book.

Well, what are the options?

A) Assume that no optional rules are used, the rules are followed for stat generation, DMs don't hand out magic items like candy and that you have the recommended 6-8 encounters per long rest with 1-2 short rests and a 4 person party.

or

B) Write the rules for the biggest cheese weasels out there that start with godlike stats, get a long rest after every fight, have every magic item they could wish for and have all monsters line up in fireball formation on an open plane for every fight. Let the RP gods sort out the dead PCs of the idiots who don't play that way.

There are many, many examples in this thread of how to buff monsters/encounters. It's not the fault of the designers if you ignore them.

Every versions of D&D has hit this issue at some point. You can either curl up into a ball hopelessly wailing and gnashing your teeth about it or do something about it. Personally, I do something about it. It's not that hard.

 

[Hussar]

Or, how about, I don't know, wishing the PCs could get so high AC already from the beginning, so the monsters would have worked right out the box...?

Just a thought

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You can't get a 24 AC from the beginning. The only way to reliably get an AC that high is for the DM to give out magic items. Which is fine. You can do so. But, if you do, then you have to accept that it needs to be accounted for in encounter design.

Which, of course, negates the value of the magic items. If you bump the AC's of PC's, then simply bump the attack bonuses of every monster, well, we're right back to 3e Christmas Tree effects where you MUST give out certain magic items for the game to work. And you get Paizo style adventures where those things are assumed and any group that doesn't optimize to the nth degree winds up with a meat grinder adventure.

OTOH, we can simply recognize the impact of these things, and hope that DM's can nut up enough to handle them.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The baseline difficulty is based on a party of 4 with no feats, no magic items, 27 point buy (or roll 4d6 drop lowest no rerolls) and not otherwise optimized.

Standard Array, even.

Change any one of those factors and the DM has to do some upgrades. That is what this thread should be about.

The 6-8 encounter/2-3 short-rest 24hr-day is also an assumed part of that baseline. So this thread is just about one baseline assumption. Each of those others might be able to spawn a similarly apocalyptic discussion.

 

[Caliburn101]

I'm not claiming your system doesn't work... but when you make the claim that the official version doesn't work... I think it's only right to look at how your game may differ from the baseline expectations the system was designed for. Your game just, at first glance, seems pretty magic item heavy and I'm wondering if that perhaps has skewed the results you got using the official system.

This is my fourth campaign run and the first was virtually no magic items until around 12th level. I develop the system then.

I don't think you are grasping something. My system works regardless of magical items - in fact there is an EXTRA CR bonus if magical items come into play - but CR's still need boosting without magical any items at all, they just need boosting more with them.

Honestly, 5th Edition run with the CR system as per RAW becomes an increasing cakewalk for anything but very new players or drunk ones once you hit 5th level plus.

 

[Caliburn101]

I wouldn't say that CR is borked. Looks pretty good actually...

The problem is the MM was written two months before the CR numbers are finalized. So anything above CR 5 is suspect and anything above CR 10 is probably wrong.
Really, the MM should have been the lsst book they did, but they rushed it to second so people could play two months sooner... Anyone around in 2014 likely remembers the complaints about having to wait three months after the PHB for the DMG.

That, and high level play is inherently broken. Because the variability of character synergies and player knowledge simply provides too much variance. The range of effectiveness varies greatly from group to group and even during the adventuring day.
There's not really a way around that without simplifying epic.

Why disagree with me and then agree with me with reasoning given!!?? lol

The CR system is borked and you just explained why... if you didn't catch that...

 

[Caliburn101]

Then explain your alternative.

Endlessly whining about an issue is pointless.

I DID explain my alternative, I stated it doesn't work and gave you a solution.

Not bothering to read a post and then making an idiotic comment about it makes you look like you should be Trump's Twitter account content advisor...

 

[Jester David]

Why disagree with me and then agree with me with reasoning given!!?? lol

The CR system is borked and you just explained why... if you didn't catch that...

Umm... no. Because CR isn't borked, the MM is. The system isn't broken, the execution that ignores the system is broke.
New monsters that really look at the DMG numbers work just fine.

Similarly, the problems with high level play don't really mean CR is broken. It will work just fine for some groups. But it just goes from harder rules, to guidelines. It's not a problem with CR, but the game in general.

 

[Oofta]

I DID explain my alternative, I stated it doesn't work and gave you a solution.

Not bothering to read a post and then making an idiotic comment about it makes you look like you should be Trump's Twitter account content advisor...

Yowza. So I'm an idiot because I didn't read every single post on every previous pages?

I'm still not convinced people are really playing with minimal/baseline requirements when they hyperventilate about how the whole thing is broken beyond repair. It works reasonably well for one group I DM (mix of new and experienced players) who are not optimized. Another group I have to adjust upwards. It takes all of an extra 30 seconds to increase the PC's level or number before I do calculations.

Then again I use things like "tactics" and "6-8 encounters between long rests" and "27 point buy".

Anyway, I'm outta here since I've effectively been called a Hitler wanna-be.

 

[Grakarg]

Don't forget the big bads have access to Devastation Orbs. Those won't do a lot of damage to the characters, but can damage the towns they use as a home base and kill their NPC friends. If you can't attack the PC's directly, attack the things they care about.

Also, lvl 12 is getting towards the tailend of PotA, the should be ripping through the opposition by then...at least until they face off with one of the Princes. That could be an exciting fight the players will be happy to defeat. And they should defeat it, the game IS about the players having fun and being heroes after all...