DM Questions... this right?

[Ylis]

I don't think that this encounter could have been too tough, considering they made it out alive. It sounds like some whiny friggin' players to me. Gestalt characters are way more powerful than average, so you were already giving them an advantage. Therefore, you did allow them some help with fighting the baddies. If they didn't have the sense to use their assets, that's on them. If they didn't want to spend money on healing items, that on them. If you have to make all decisions for them, why are they playing anyway? Next time, maybe when they want to rush full force into a formation of baddies, make them roll a "common sense" roll (Wis check). If they pass it drop the hint of "Are you SURE you want to do that?". If they do, then you can always say later that you gave them the warning. If their characters choose to act without common sense, there's nothing you can do about it

I think you did a great job. You let your players use characters I, personally, wouldn't have, but that's not the issue. If they can't be happy with the things you do for them, make them play "by the book" for awhile. Perhaps they'll change their tune when they realize that you are helping them out....

 

[reiella]

3 6th level PCs versus an EL 12 encounter (7 CR 6 critters)+modifier for a gestalt fighter/clerc in the mix.

Yea it's a bit harsh, even with the gestalt character classes.

I'd probably 'base-line' encounters around EL 7 or 8 (due to a 3 person party). And yea, that was a bit harsh, but really depends on their tactics used.

There was a notable tactical failure on part of the party (not using suppressive magic), but I think the party would have been in a worse condition if they encouraged the hobgoblins to spread out and surrond them, so that may be a mixed bag. Shieldwall gives the gobos bonuses to their Reflex save as well...

A single fireball at that level would average 6d6 damage or about 21 points of damage, and 10 on a save... Also presuming that the cleric didn't hit his hobbie buddies up with Protection from Elements (after all, if they're using military formation, they should expect suppression spells and prepare for them accordingly).

Without a dedicated healer, -ANY- attrition battle becomes alot more difficult as well. And this would be an attrition battle simply due to the numbers. Interesting sidenote is that all the party members are able to cure themselves except for the monk/sorc (Who will be able to in some levels ), so I wouldn't worry too much about that truthfully.

I'd say that the encounter was too hard, and that the lack of a dedicated healer emphasizes that problem in this situation.

Of course, I'm not used to gestalt characters so *shrug*. At a glance, it was too much though.

[ Added Commentary ]

Gestalt characters are way more powerful than average, so you were already giving them an advantage.

Trouble here is that, some of the opponents (at least one) was also a gestalt character.

 

[Dancer]

You'd think with the Gestalt classes, at least ONE of those classes would have been priest. If the characters survived, the encounter wasn't too harsh. You players choose really, really, bad tactics and initial judgement (in not taking a class that allows them access to healing spells). ONe of the purposes of gestalt classes (one could argue the main purpose) is to allow a smaller party (say, uhmmm, 3 players) to have all the neccessary classes for successful adventuring. Your guys minimaxed power classes and got stomped.

 

[DerianCypher]

A few points I'd like to emphasize:

Only 4 goblins were able to attack at any one time due to the formation.

The refs saves of the goblins was about 5 including bonuses from the shield wall and the spell DC was 16, so they had less than a 50% chance to save.

The cleric wasn't able to do much healing because the buffing he did wasted most of the spells he was able to cast and the refresh times lasted pretty much the entire battle.

The ACs of the characters were in the mid-high twentys and the goblins only had attacks of +12/+7, so they were only hitting on high rolls.

 

[Arnwyn]

The pal/bar's argument was that they had no cleric so I should have tailored the encounter with that in mind.

It depends on what you like and how you want to run your game.

For example, the above concept is absolutely antithesis to how I prefer to run my games - and I have been very clear with my players about that particular point.

It's something you and your players have to work out.

With that said, based on the decisions those players made - well, they made their own bed. As it was set up, I don't think it was an "impossible" encounter. Fighting phalanx dudes head-on? Hmmm...

 

[reiella]

A few points I'd like to emphasize:

Only 4 goblins were able to attack at any one time due to the formation.

The refs saves of the goblins was about 5 including bonuses from the shield wall and the spell DC was 16, so they had less than a 50% chance to save.

The cleric wasn't able to do much healing because the buffing he did wasted most of the spells he was able to cast and the refresh times lasted pretty much the entire battle.

The ACs of the characters were in the mid-high twentys and the goblins only had attacks of +12/+7, so they were only hitting on high rolls.

Ah, I found something interesting in the Gestalt character writeup which may help ya out in the future. Typically just consider their CR 1 lower (unless it's Save or Die/Special Abilities Rock Me, then CR 2 lower), for this instance, just consider as if it were a batch of 6 CR 5 (The 6th level Fighters) + CR 6 (the Fighter/Cleric gestalt).

Assuming 7 CR 6, it comes close to EL 11, possibly EL 12 if you account for the Fighter/Cleric.

That still assumes a 4 person party, and would tend to be a little bit over the top.

Evil sidenote, you can create a shieldwall while surronding an individual (up to 8 that way, or more generally 4 with a cross formation).

 

[Amal Shukup]

Buncha Whiners...

I'm not sure why players seem to think its the DM's job to guarantee that they don't end up in too tough a fight.

If the characters had dispatched the sentries silently, I'm sure it would have been much more of a cakewalk (unless your soldiers spend all day lined up in formation).

Once the alarm was sounded, they had tough choices to make: flee, charge in guns blazing, find another entrance, utilize guile... The only REALLY wrong choice was to make a leisurely entrance after giving the defenders a chance to prepare - which it appears they did.

Leisurely entering an alerted, actively defended stronghold? That should have cost some PC lives IMHO...

A handful of guards and a Cleric? You were SOFT, man. How about the ambushes, improvised traps, caltrops, nets, crew-serviced weapons, burning oil, skirmishers to flank and harrass the backfield, a planed fighting retreat through a series of obstacles and reinforced positions? That's just the obvious stuff any trained soldier can come up with. Hows about magic and sneakiness?

All legitimate responses to an invading force of overconfident PCs.

Players should use critical judgement - make an assessment of the situation as it lies and NOT just waft from encounter to encounter relying solely on the DM to 'save' them from being fools.

Just my opinion of course

A'Mal