DM Seminar in #dnd3e! This session's topic: High Level Gaming!

As you can see by the scoop on the front page, the second seminar is tonight at 9:00 Central Time!

Tonight we'll be discussing High Level Gaming (with a tangent on Cut Scenes), plus any problems you've been having with your group!

So come on in, join the crowd, and discuss the sacred art of DMing!

Oh, and Ryan Dancey's going to be there! See! It's the cool thing to do!
 

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Hey, will you look at that? There's logs for both workshops! Here's the log for the first one:

DM Workshop #1 : Houserules
Hosted by Tsunami Febraury 12, 2004

<Tsunami> For those who don't know, tonight is a DM Workshop on House Rules
<Tsunami> Hosted by the one and only me!
<Tsunami> Two of us?
<Tsunami> Which one is the real one?
* Silvr_Dragon licks both tsunamis
<thatdarncat> I could kill both of you and let Bynw sort you out...
<Ryeuken> tsunami do u work for any rpg company?
<Silvr_Dragon> You taste more authentic Tsunami
<Alex_Knight> I think you are, Tsunami... I just noticed the little Op symbol.
<Tsunami> Ryeuken- Nope, but I know someone who knows someone who is!
<Tsunami> )
* Sutekh better get his moneys worth.
<Ryeuken> dont u guys find the D&D skill system oversimplified?
* Tsunami coughs real loud
<Tsunami> Hello everybody!
<KingOfLaw> Not really..they're a little complicated, actually...with max skill ranks, cross class skills, etc.
<Tsunami> Welcome to the first EN World DM Seminar
<KingOfLaw> Now people needs to talk ;)
<Tsunami> For those who don't know, this is a new feature of the #dnde chat room
<thatdarncat> new but old )
<Tsunami> heh
<Tsunami> Please keep in mind that while this won't be a moderated chat (like interviews), this will be an "on topic" chat
<Kaodi> Bah, I think in e the skills should be broken up into Basic/Advanced and Exclusive. Basic are class skills for everyone, advanced for some, and exclusive for a few.
<Tsunami> Tonight we will be discussing House Rules
<Tsunami> And how to use them to your advantage in your campaigns
<Tsunami> Who here uses house rules in your campaigns?
* Neko_Ali raises a hand
<Harlock> me
<Ryeuken> me but not in d&D )
* Dan used to... Hasn't run in years.
<Tsunami> House rules can be used to simply fix errors in gameplay, or they can be used to change the flavor of entire campaigns
<Silveras> i do
* Alex_Knight has.
* Bynw uses house rules
<Tsunami> One area where I've found house rules most frivolent is in Favored Class
<Tsunami> Do you folks use the base rules for favored class as presented in the player's handbook?
<Harlock> mostly.
<Alex_Knight> Yup.
<Neko_Ali> I usually remove that from my games.
<Tsunami> Neko- that's what I've found is usually the case
<Neko_Ali> unless I'm deliberatly avoiding house rules, that's one of the first things to go.
<Silveras> Is that "prevalent" or "frivolous" you were going for ?
<necro> hehe that was my thought
<Tsunami> Silveras- I'm using "Jabberwocky Vocabulary"
<Tsunami> p
<Silveras> ok
<Kaodi> Favoured class could be done without.
<Jack_Burton> Yep, I don't see the point in it.
<Alex_Knight> It usually never becomes a problem in my games because either they play the favored class, or they only take one class with maybe a PrC, which doesn't suffer the penalty, IIRC.
<Tsunami> Now I've found that even if you don't use Favored Class rules, changing the favored class can alter the outlook of a race
<Harlock> correct, Alex_Knight
<Jack_Burton> It's not that huge of a advantadge either way, for humans or otherwise.
<KingOfLaw> Indeed...a lot of dwarven wizards running around with Con )
<Tsunami> Heh, yup
<Alex_Knight> Or they play Humans where it doesn't freaking matter. ;-)
* thatdarncat uses houserules - the DM (me) is always right
<Tsunami> But if you change the Half-Orc favored class to, say, Monk, that changes the entire racial outlook
<Neko_Ali> favored class would perhaps be better giving a small bonus to the race/class combo. But mostly I think it's better just being removed.
<KingOfLaw> I mostly play humans anyway, with the select elf every once and a while.
<Kaodi> Experience penalties are evil.
<Tsunami> Neko- I've considered giving a bonus to favored classes as well
<Sutekh> Tsunami Define a Home Rule. Do you think if everyone has different home rules that it can interfere with the flow of a game with players spending hours arguing who is right or wrong?
<Jack_Burton> Maybe, if there was...I dunno, an experience point bonus. Otherwise, there's no point. The penalty is just too easy to get around.
<Tsunami> Sutekh- House rules are any rules that add or subtract to the base rules presented in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, or Monster Manual
<KingOfLaw> for your personal game )
<KingOfLaw> Thus the "house" part )
<Tsunami> exactly, King
<Tsunami> )
<Sutekh> So that means rd party d rules are House Rules?
<Silveras> Example house rule I made Sorcerer the favored class of Elves in my world, as magic comes naturally to them. Humans, on the other hand, are not allowed to be Sorcerers because magic does NOT come naturally to them.
* DeadGuest blinks... au?
<Tsunami> Sutekh- Actually, I'd consider so, Sutekh. Taking rulings from a rd party d suppliment would be a house rule in your campaign
<Tsunami> Silveras- Just the example I was looking for!
<Sutekh> k
<Sutekh> And the FR books?
<KingOfLaw> nope
<Alex_Knight> In fact anything other than the three core books could be considered house rules.
<Sutekh> All rules listed in there are house rules?
<KingOfLaw> That's an official setting
<Sutekh> yes
<Alex_Knight> At least I would.
<Tsunami> I was considering giving the human bonus skill points to any character who takes their favored class
<Sutekh> But.. does not fit with Tsunamis rule )
<Alex_Knight> Tsunami, I like that idea.
<Tsunami> Sutekh- That's debatable, but I'd say if you're not running Forgotten Realms, taking a rule or two from it would be using house rules
<Sutekh> Okay
<Kaodi> Tsunami> That's a cool idea.
<Sutekh> So would you mind expanding your original statement then?
<Tsunami> Heh, sure thing Sutekh
* KingOfLaw doesn't like the negative reinforcement used in the favored class rules
<Tsunami> Me neither, KingOfLaw
<Silveras> Rule # of house rules Understand the implications before you do it.
<Tsunami> Speaking of races, how many folks use +Effective Character Level or +Level Adjustment races in their campaigns?
<Neko_Ali> agreed on that. THe same problem I had with alignment restrictions and multiclass restrictions on certain classes.
<Sutekh> Tsunami I dont think there has ever been such a time as now for people to become confused with the HUGE influx of d games and their own rules and eccentricities. Trying to plot a straight course through all the different rulings (ie alternate PHB classes) is a very difficult task.
* Alex_Knight jumps up and down and waves his hands.
<KingOfLaw> It's better to award players for using a certain class/race combination rather than forcing them to with clunky rules
<Tsunami> I agree, Sutekh
<Neko_Ali> they made a big deal about removing restrictions and making whatever character you wanted, yet there still were these restrictions
<Kaodi> So, I was thinking of completing that... taking a level in your favoured class gives you an extra skill point for that level. And perhaps prestige classes that stack with your favoured class do as well>
<Ryeuken> the first rule is not to talk about the rules )
<Tsunami> Alex- what ECL and LA races do you use?
<KingOfLaw> Bah..hard my undead butt. Its a pick and choose situation.
<KingOfLaw> Tsunami I do )
<KingOfLaw> I especially like it when at least one of my players uses something a little unusual.
<Tsunami> KingOfLaw- do you implement any house rules when applying ECL or LA?
<Alex_Knight> Well, as long as the player asks first, any. Right now I have a party of four half orcs and a Bugbear.
<Tsunami> Wow. Have you found any balance issues?
<Sutekh> and I also think that so many d products means a huge issue with people arguing over using their own home rules
<Tsunami> I agree, Sutekh
<KingOfLaw> Nah..balance isn't a problem. You just have to be able to know how to challenge an unusual character during encounters.
<Tsunami> It can be difficult for a DM to moderate what rules to use from so many books
<Alex_Knight> At this point? Not really.
<Tsunami> Good point, KingOfLaw
<Harlock> I haven't seen that, Sutekh. But I know my group well and we trust one another a lot and the DM's word is law. Be it in my campaign or Reiella's.
<KingOfLaw> For instance, a large character could be challenged more simply by making the space the encounter takes place in smaller than they're used to (IE. Not allowing them to use their full reach to their advantage all the time).
<Tsunami> What do you folks think defines a house rule as good or bad?
<Alex_Knight> Granted, I did give the bugbear a bonus by letting him be level ( Racial Hit Die and + LA) when the rest of the part started out at (Granted they were three by the time they met the bugbear.).
<Kaodi> Ah, simple solution> Only the DM can use non-core rules, hehehe
<KingOfLaw> Tsunami Where or not the rule works under repeated use and pressure during game play.
<KingOfLaw> *whether
<Alex_Knight> But then the Bugbear has a specific goal in mind, and what happens after that is up to the players.
<Kaodi> Personally I think that its best to use the rules made for a specific setting without too much mixing.
<Tsunami> I agree, Kaodi
<Harlock> I think a house rule can be defined as good if it enhances the flavor of the campaign. Bottomline is Does it make the game more fun for everyone involved? If not, bad house rule.
<Tsunami> I completely agree, Harlock
<Tsunami> In our current campaign, one character is going to play as a Minotaur
<KingOfLaw> For instance, my spell critical house rules did NOT work for area of effect spells the first time it was used when the enemies in a fireball took points of damage and all died, ending the carefully planned counter in one round.
<Ryeuken> any of u guys in newyork i wanna see a good game being done
* ToEToE looks around
<Tsunami> THis means he will probably be far more powerful in combat than any other character
<Vaxalon> Have you ever heard the old triad of Gamist, Simulationist, Dramatist?
<Tsunami> But as long as the game is still fun for all of us, it doesn't really matter
<KingOfLaw> So, I changed it to where criticals only count on ranged and normal touch attacks. )
<ToEToE> yes i am
<Tsunami> That's a good impliment of House Rules, KingOfLaw
<Tsunami> Speaking of changing rules on the fly, has anyone run a chase scene in a D&D game before?
* Dan is missing too much - being stuck back in D&D / AD&D era rules... He waves bye...
<Tsunami> Philip Athans suggested the following house rule for a chase scene between a wight and a flying character
<Vaxalon> A gamist would say that a house rule is good if it allows you to make the GAME more exciting. A simulationist would say that a house rule is good if it enhances versimilitude. A dramatist would say "who needs house rules? We ignore the CORE rules."
<KingOfLaw> I've ran many chase scenes
<Tsunami> Basically they have to roll off against each other, adding their Dexterities to a roll of d. If the wight (being chased) wins, Lardus (the pursuer) has a harder time catching up to him the next round (so he rolls d instead of d). Every time Lardus falls behind his chances of ever catching up diminishes. All this was weighted to show that the wight, a natural flier, was better and faster at it than Lardus, who only occasionally flies, pulled along by a big heavy halberd. Oddly, this rule actually seemed to work. Give it a try.
<ToEToE> KingOfLaw i like that rule )
<ToEToE> specially since i have ranged touch attacks )
<Sutekh> Tsunami Sure. Spycraft Car chase scene
<Sutekh> On a Freeway even.
<KingOfLaw> The player loved it when he killed four ogres in one hit P He wasn't so loving of it after I changed it the next session.
<Tsunami> I don't think D&D is particularly geared towards chase scenes
<ToEToE> it can be
<Sutekh> Cause nothing moves fast enough
<Tsunami> What with character speeds being basically the same
<Sutekh> Cars do )
<Tsunami> But simple house rules can fix that
<ToEToE> i move rather fast
<Tsunami> heh
<ToEToE> i walk and run
<Tsunami> I rather liked Philip Athan's suggestions of rolling lesser and lesser dice
<Tsunami> Each racer starting with d
<KingOfLaw> Nope, because terrain isn't really taken into account. During chase scenes, I have my players and the enemies roll dexterity checks to see if they fall down, trip, etc. and Con checks to see if they become exhausted. It ends up being a lot of dice rolling.
<Tsunami> The loser rolling d (plus dexterity) next, the winner keeping with d
<Vaxalon> Where are the best chase scenes in movies?
<Vaxalon> bond movies
<KingOfLaw> Usually in cars P
<Vaxalon> What are the attributes of a bond chase scene?
<Vaxalon> > Chewing up the scenery
<Hildulf> There's a good one in xXx...
<Vaxalon> > Things blowing up
<Sutekh> Guns mounted on cars
<Vaxalon> > Stunts
<Sutekh> and collateral damage
<DeadGuest> Bourne Identity.
<Vaxalon> yes!
<Tsunami> I agree
<Vaxalon> so
<Vaxalon> When you're running a chase scene in a game, here's the best way to do it.
<Vaxalon> Present the players with a series of mini-encounters.
<Smaug> I have a char in D&D who can walk ft a second
<Vaxalon> Each one requires a check to pass.
<ToEToE> how about blues brothers car chase scene ?
<Tsunami> I remember reading about someone on the boards rolling a "chance die" to see if something happened Rooms collapsing, walls caving in, stuff like that
<Vaxalon> Jump, strength, dexterity, climb
* ENGuest is now known as dDwarf
<Tsunami> That's a good idea, Vax
<Tsunami> toetoe- i love that one
<Vaxalon> If you pass the check, dandy
<Kaodi> Would it not be simpler to give a circumstance penalty of say - for each loss?
<Vaxalon> If you fail it, then the distance widens or narrows
<Vaxalon> So you're not rolling the same dice over and over
<Tsunami> That's a very good idea, Vax
<Vaxalon> You're rolling one kind of check, then another kind of check
* Vaxalon isn't an iron dm for nothing
<Tsunami> Ha ha ha
<ToEToE> why not just role balance checks when running
<Vaxalon> Also, that's how chase scenes were handled in the old James Bond RPG
<Vaxalon> ToE Because rolling JUST balance checks would be boring.
<Vaxalon> It's good to throw one in once in a while
<Tsunami> One place in which I see a lot of fluctuation is character creation
<KingOfLaw> Heh..the best chase scene we ever had in our game was when we were chasing the villain in horse drawn carriages...and my PC cast a wall of force in front of the enemy's carriage.....to say the least, there wasn't much left of him, his carraige, or his horses after they crashed into it.
<ToEToE> yeah but rolling to much is annouying
<Tsunami> Heh heh heh
<Tsunami> Last Sunday my group was rolling up new characters
<dDwarf> wish I knew what y'all had discussed already so I won't bring up dead issues )
<Tsunami> And the DM told us to reroll all ones
<Vaxalon> ToE Not if something different is happening with each roll.
<Tsunami> dDwarf- Chase scenes, favored class, ECL
<KingOfLaw> yep )
<Tsunami> Least to say, I rolled up a very, very heroic character
<Tsunami> What character generation house rules have you folks seen?
<dDwarf> I usually do d, reroll s
<Sutekh> point buy?
<Sutekh> )
<Alex_Knight> d reroll
<ToEToE> i mean i could see rulling if you were running through the woods or a field or through rocky terrain
* Sutekh hasnt rolled for stats in a little over a year
<ToEToE> but i couldn't see rolling for running on a road
<ToEToE> or in town
<Kaodi> Games I play in are point buy.
<Hildulf> d+d, drop lowest, nothing unmodified over .
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<KingOfLaw> point buy...
<Vaxalon> ToE That's why you never run a chase in open terrain.
<Vaxalon> It's boring that way.
<Alex_Knight> d reroll 's, d drop lowest. Point buy points. d drop lowest, roll 9 times, pick best .
<KingOfLaw> Well, horse carriages can only go so far off the road before they hit trees, rocks, etc. )
<Vaxalon> Reroll twos is basically d+
<Vaxalon> KoL Yes, but they can encounter crowds, uneven pavement, stacked barrels, vegetable carts...
<Tsunami> Have you ever considered random race or class selection?
<Vaxalon> Baby ducks
<Sutekh> Vaxalon Mother pushing a pram? )
<Vaxalon> Tsunami No, never.
<KingOfLaw> lol..baby ducks
<Vaxalon> Sutekh Exactly!
<ToEToE> although i never really run anwhere since my basemovement is always so high )
<Vaxalon> I used baby ducks in a James Bond game.
<Sutekh> cept its always some dirty looking woman pushing a pram filled with Empty cans!
<Tsunami> heh
<dDwarf> Bree talks about doing random race/class drawings in an old game of hers, she said it turned out fun
<Vaxalon> They used a fate point to keep from running them over.
<KingOfLaw> We've done that before too, Wil. I ended up playing a female halfing barbarian o_o
<Tsunami> Ha ha ha
<Tsunami> Another area in which I see a lot of house rules is in Magic
<Tsunami> What house rules for magic have you folks seen?
<Tsunami> There are some simple fixes, like harm/heal
<Tsunami> But I think other house rules can add a lot of flavor to campaigns
<KingOfLaw> She got the nickname Nutcracker for a reason ;)
<Tsunami> Let's say I wanted all magic to be casters using leftover radiation from an ancient apocalypse
<Alex_Knight> None yet.
<Tsunami> What house rules do you folks think would work best to slap onto magic?
<Sutekh> I tend to not fux with the Magic systems in most games... Once you change something it like you are causing other cracks in the dyke to appear and you have to keep on making changes to balance things up
<Vaxalon> In the oneshot I'm preparing for Sunday, there are no spell CASTERS. All magic is done through magic items of some kind.
<ToEToE> lol
<Vaxalon> ANd then very few
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<Kaodi> Sutekh> Spell points...
<Vaxalon> It's a tolkienesque setting
<KingOfLaw> Well, I use a lot of magic in my games. For instance, in a mage duel, I don't use initiative to determine who goes first..but whoever rolls highest on a spellcraft check )
<Vaxalon> A friend of mine wanted to play Legolas. )
<Tsunami> For Radiation-Mages, I'd consider adding a fortitude save to avoid temporary consitution damage
<Kaodi> Vax> Cool. What time is that?
<Tsunami> That's interesting, King
<Vaxalon> Time?
<Vaxalon> Kaodi Private game, FTF
<Sutekh> the best magic rules I have seen though came from a book series. Basically on the planet you had gems that held magical charge. Gems were of different color varieties and you would use the charge contained in each for different magical effects.
<Tsunami> That would be interesting
<KingOfLaw> Hey Tsunami Did you read my article in Stygian #? I have a Rad Wizard class in it ^_^
<Tsunami> What rules would you impliment in order to enforce that in your campaign?
<Tsunami> Sutekh, I mean
<Sutekh> Of course you were really only a 'wizard' type if your gem had a charge
<Vaxalon> In an old game I had four kinds of spellcasters, one for each element
<Tsunami> King- No, I haven't, but great minds think alike!
<KingOfLaw> In fact, the entire article is about using radiation as a magic source.
<Sutekh> Well I also played in said game, Tsunami )
<Vaxalon> SOrceror/fire, Wizard/air, Psion/Earth, Alchemist/water
<Tsunami> heh
<Sutekh> Mostly the magics were related to stat boots
<Tsunami> Well, what rules were implimented?
<Sutekh> ie temp stat increases
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<Sutekh> It was a 'Western' setting
<Sutekh> So most of us were gun slingers
<Sutekh> some used magic in shootouts to clip say guys before they got a shot off
<KingOfLaw> I recently saw a cool house rule for sorcerers...I think Ralts came up with it...but it allows sorcerers to specialize in an element.
<Sutekh> like a much improved Haste
<Tsunami> heh
<Tsunami> That's interesting, KingofLaw
<KingOfLaw> Similar to how wizards specialize in a school of magic.
<Tsunami> I've often wanted to impliment a "theme rule" to sorcerers
<Sutekh> There wernt any wizards per se. No one could cast magic without a gem
<Sutekh> and getting new ones was hard considering they were impossible to recharge
<Sutekh> So yes.. outlaws were ridding around killing people for their gems
<Tsunami> Cool
<KingOfLaw> Tsunami I like the idea of 'themes' for sorcerers. It makes more since, because the magic that is their heritage may lean toward one extreme and that should definately affect the character's spell selection.
<KingOfLaw> *sense
<Tsunami> What rules would you folks suggest for implimenting a "theme" to sorcerers?
<Vaxalon> KoL I think that's better handled by player choice than by rule.
<Vaxalon> None at all.
<Vaxalon> I think it should be up to the player to assemble a theme
<Tsunami> Well, let's say we wanted to make a rule to reward a theme selection
<Vaxalon> After all, who is the theme for?
<Alex_Knight> Tsunami There was an issue of Dragon that had [Bloodline] feats for sorcerors. Those are the rules I plan on using.
<Tsunami> Good idea, Alex
<Vaxalon> Alex Those weren't really rules, they were guidelines for players to handle
<Vaxalon> Though they had a few feats
<Sutekh> I like settings where magic isnt inherent.. where it has to be earned.. to be controlled
<Tsunami> Perhaps choosing themes for sorcerers could be rewarded with an extra spell
<Vaxalon> nah
<Tsunami> Or a stat boost by "burning" spells?
<Tsunami> That would be interesting
<KingOfLaw> Yes, but did they offer something that wasn't 'dragon this, dragon that'? I hate the fact that sorcerer's magic is instantly associated with being related to a dragon.
<Vaxalon> How about doing it the way they do fighting styles for fighters?
<Tsunami> heh
<Tsunami> How's that, Vax?
<Vaxalon> Well
<Vaxalon> FIghting styles give you a small bonus if you take a list of feats.
<Vaxalon> A "magic style" would give you a small bonus if you take a list of spells, and maybe one or two magic feats.
<dDwarf> I'm thinking about doing a fighting styles pdf, although it might focus on weapons
<KingOfLaw> For instance, a sorcerer with a necromancy theme could have been the result of a curse set upon the mother by an ancient lich or something similar.
<Vaxalon> For a wizard to qualify, he would have to reserve slots for the spells in his style.
<Tsunami> That's an interesting idea, Vax
<Tsunami> What bonuses do you think would be appropriate?
<Vaxalon> SMall ones.
<Alex_Knight> Vax Nono, not that issue. There was one where it had specific feats that gave sorcerors specific spells in addition to their noemal list.
<Vaxalon> On the same order of fighting styles.
<Tsunami> Bonuses to skills?
<Tsunami> Extra options during spellcasting?
<KingOfLaw> Something like the Heroic Paths from Midnight could be used for sorcerers...with some serious toning down in power...to represent a theme.
<Tsunami> Speaking of magic, the new DM in the campaign we're about to start has made some interesting changes for his campaign
<Vaxalon> Tsunami Bonuses to skills would be a good start, perhaps small metamagic on certain spells
<Tsunami> He's given humans innate spells to represent their closeness with magic
<Neko_Ali> time for me to go collapse... take care all
<Tsunami> But he's taken away their bonus skill points and feats
<alaric> the alternative would be for spells to have prerequisites
<dDwarf> it would be hard to tone down the heroic paths any farther )
<KingOfLaw> Bleh...the sorcerer and wizard skill lists are so crappy now as it is.
<Tsunami> The new DM has also taken away simple weapon proficiencies from fighters, and instead given them a number of exotic weapon proficiencies
<Vaxalon> Taken away SIMPLE weapon proficiencies?
<Tsunami> By making these changes, he's given the world a very magical feel
<KingOfLaw> Well, the unlimited knowlede skills are nice.
<Vaxalon> That's really weird.
<alaric> how does that work?
<dDwarf> yep, that is indeed weird )
<Tsunami> Vax- in this new campaign, there are far more wizards and sorcerers than anything else
<Tsunami> The fighter is the rare class
<Tsunami> And doesn't worry about using simple weapons
<Tsunami> Through these house rules, he's really added a lot of flavor to the campaign
<dDwarf> I think it would be kinda cool to just give a fighter martial/exotic WP and make him choose
<Vaxalon> Dwarf That's how e was.
<dDwarf> that was before my time
<alaric> i've been wanting to do something with fighters to give them more decisions in combat, i thought about a Sword Forms a la WoT, anyone seen anything like that in a d book?
* dDwarf snickers
<Tsunami> Dwarf- that would certaintly give them more of the "specialized" feel
<Tsunami> In ., did anyone add any house rules to the Ranger?
<Tsunami> By the masses, it was considered a somewhat bland class
<Vaxalon> Alaric you mean that Combat Expertise, Power Attack, disarms, trips, bull rushes, overruns, and different weapon choices aren't enough?
<Tsunami> I've seen some interesting Ranger house rules
<alaric> the entire point of the current rules is that previously a master swordsman wouldn't know how to use a club
<Tsunami> One person on the Monte Cook boards gave Rangers the Alarm spell useable once per day
<Tsunami> I think that's an interesting way to enforce the "always aware" theme on rangers
<Tsunami> So what are some other interesting house rules you folks have seen?
<Vaxalon> I adapted the Scarred Lands arcane heat rule
<Vaxalon> I made it do subdual damage instead
<Tsunami> What's the Arcane Heat rule?
<Vaxalon> point per % of arcane spell failure./
<Tsunami> ah, i see
<Vaxalon> That's MY rule.
<Tsunami> That's an interesting way of doing the "magic fatigues" idea
<Vaxalon> But it only applies if the caster is wearing heavy clothes or armor
<Vaxalon> Actually, it's a LITTLE more complicated than that.
<Vaxalon> You roll d per spell level, subtract , and add point per % ASF
<Vaxalon> SO if you're naked or nearly so, there's never any damage.
<Tsunami> In one of the Sinbad Movies (the swashbuckler, not the comic), the mage has very powerful magic, but it ages him
<Kaodi> Vaxalon> Have you been dwelling too much on those Albadians? *chuckle*
<Vaxalon> shrug I think it's a nifty rule.
<Tsunami> How about upping damage and saving throws on spells, but having the caster make saving throws vs aging a few years?
<Vaxalon> tsunami baaad rule.
<Vaxalon> Every spellcaster would be an elf.
<Tsunami> Well, here's what I was pondering
<Vaxalon> You can SIMULATE aging by doing attribute damage to str/dex/con
<Tsunami> Very good idea
<Vaxalon> Why should your Int go up because of MAGICAL aging?
<Vaxalon> Your mind is still young and stupid
<Vaxalon> On the rare occasion that I want aging, I use str/dex/con drain.
<Tsunami> What do you think would be a good improvement to magic for this aging drain?
<Tsunami> Anyone?
<Vaxalon> Well
<Vaxalon> Most casters don't have a huge use for physical attributes
<Vaxalon> So it shouldn't be a lot
<Vaxalon> As long as it heals.
<Vaxalon> If it doesn't...
<Vaxalon> Well then magic should be something that's just not used by PC's very much.
<Tsunami> Maybe most spells wouldn't cause the age drain, but mages could combine spells and age permanently
<Vaxalon> And when it IS used, the effects should be big.
<Tsunami> That would be interesting... for each spell combined, you lose d points of strength, dex, or con
<Vaxalon> For it to be aging, it needs to be all three I think
<Tsunami> So you could combine fireball and magic missile and flaming arrow, but you'd lose anywhere from to points
<Kaodi> I don't know... sounds like a good way to become useless, fast.
<Vaxalon> Or dead
<Tsunami> I think it would be easier to impliment in a magic-heavy world, where fixing hurt stats is one clerical trip away
<Vaxalon> So the most powerful wizard isn't the smartest one, but the most muscular, quickest, and toughest?
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<Tsunami> Flavorwise, they would change that way
<Sutekh> Ive built int Wizards on point buy with equal strength and Con
<Sutekh> Its not that difficult a jump
<Tsunami> So while the intelligent wizards would cast many spells, the wizards who went to boot camp can do less spells overall, but more powerful spells
<Vaxalon> The concept of the old, frail wizard who is nonetheless powerful and dangerous would be history.
<Tsunami> Vax- it would, indeed, change the flavor of the campaign
<Tsunami> "magic is for the young"
<Kaodi> Ah... that would be funny. Cleric who use Con as their spellcasting attribute, Sorcerers with Dex and Wizards with Str, hehehe
<Tsunami> heh
<Sutekh> and the undead, Tsnumai )
<Tsunami> Fighters who use intelligence, and barbarians who use charisma?
<Kaodi> hehehe
<Tsunami> Sutekh- wow, they would be better off
<Tsunami> Actually, we could continue that
<Kaodi> Fighters and Barbarians Intelligence, and Rogues Charisma.
<Sutekh> Indeed
<Tsunami> Through heavy house-ruling, you could change the classes around
<Kaodi> But then we would just have psionics all over again.
<Sutekh> What I never understood was why Vampire Mages in nd ed didnt continually cast wish spells. It AGED THEM.
<Tsunami> Fighters are no longer tanks- instead, they're masters of strategy, replacing strength bonus damage with intelligence
<Kaodi> Yeah..... if magic ages you, imagine what the dragons would look like, hehehe...
<Tsunami> Heh heh heh
<Tsunami> "Take the damned princess... just give me back my dentures!"
<Tsunami> Actually, house rules can be used on monsters to create interesting effects
<Tsunami> I like the suggestion in d Modern that all undead have a weakness
<Tsunami> Could be wolfsbane, could be rock and roll
<Kaodi> More like, " If you can beat my tooth in one on one combat, you can have her back. "
<Tsunami> p
<Sutekh> Sorry.. that was just a nitpick of mine.
<Kaodi> You'd probably end up with a world that looked a lot like th age Krynn... big, evil dragons that squish everything.
<Sutekh> Hello.. you can cast wish. It ages you. You are a Vampire. You get better with Age.
<Alex_Knight> "I Wish... I was a little older! Yeah!"
<Kaodi> I didn't know being old was good for vamps...
<Tsunami> Heh heh heh
<Sutekh> Indeed it is
<Sutekh> esp in Ravenloft
<Tsunami> I've always wanted to play an undead character
<Sutekh> You start not caring about Silvered weapons
<Sutekh> or getting staked
<Kaodi> Yeah, more bang for your buck.
<raleel-laptop> that was exploited in first edition on occasion
<Tsunami> A zombie fighter or something like that
* Baastet (Baastet@*.net9.mo.sprint-hsd.net) has joined #dnde
<Sutekh> or crossing running water
<Baastet> Hola
<Tsunami> Hello Baastet!
<Baastet> hi tsu )
<Tsunami> Has anyone here had experience having an undead character?
<Tsunami> I think house rules are required for playing an undead or construct
* Baastet pounces on Sutekh and dresses him up as Sailor Moon Flumph
<Kaodi> Why?
<Tsunami> Mostly to simplify things (although that does seem counterintuitive, doesn't it?)
<Sutekh> Hey.. none of that crossdressing today Baastet )
<Tsunami> I think it's easier to play as odd races if they act the same way (rules-wise, not flavor-wise) as normal characters
<Tsunami> Say, allowing sneak attacks and poison and such to work against your golem character because of his soft spots and allergy to poison (okay, that's stretching it)
* Baastet repounces on Sutekh and dresses him up as Tuxedo Mask flumph
<Tsunami> Because otherwise it's more difficult to balance things out and keep the game smooth and fun
<Tsunami> What do you folks think?
<Kaodi> Bah.
<Baastet> Sute Better?
<Tsunami> Kaodi- Please, extrapolate. )
<Vaxalon> I agree, Tsunami. THe game isn't designed to deal with really weird PC's.
<Kaodi> Being a half-flesh golem just means you should take a wand of lightning bolts with you everywhere.
<Vaxalon> Kaod
<Vaxalon> WHy bother with something that will run out? Use a sap of lightning burst.
<raleel-laptop> apparently there aren't enough character hooks with humans and elves and halflings, we need half flesh golems
<Kaodi> hehehe
<Tsunami> But I figure if a player gets upset because you're changing the rules but keeping the flavor, then he's playing a really weird race for all the wrong reasons
<Vaxalon> I've only had one player ask to play something weird
<Vaxalon> Half gold dragon
<Kaodi> Being different is what makes being different fun.
<Vaxalon> he was REALLY peeved when he found out he couldn't use his fighting feats when polymorphed into human form
<Kaodi> Speaking of strange things, I love the template in level form.
<Tsunami> The Dragon Discipline? Or level form a la Sava Species?
<Kaodi> Having your th level necromancer *grow* into a lich is just cool.
<Tsunami> Savage Species... I don't know where that ge went...
<Tsunami> ah
<Baastet> hi rasyr
<Tsunami> I agree, Kaodi
<Tsunami> hullo rasyr!
<Kaodi> It also means that having a template is viable at low levels.
<Rasyr> howdy all
<Tsunami> In fact, Kaodi, a character in my campaign wanted to take a "level" of the winged template
<Kaodi> I'm not familiar with that template. I don't have SS.
<Tsunami> So instead of wings and the dexterity (and other) bonus, I gave him wings, d hit dice, and Good Flight maneuverability
<Tsunami> The template was + ECL, but I think the changes lowered it to + quite easily
<Tsunami> Kaodi- have you had experience dividing the templates into levels?
<Baastet> Hi Silvr )
<raleel-laptop> good flight maneuverability is pretty good, i think i would have made it + still
* Baastet pounces on Silvr_Dragon and puts pokemon stickers all over him
<Tika> Baastet!!!
<Kaodi> You mean doing it myself? Not really. I tried once though...
<Tsunami> releel- to be honest, it was right before the last adventure of the campaign, so I didn't worry about it too much )
<Tsunami> What did you divide into levels, Kaodi?
<raleel-laptop> lol, heh
* Tika gives {{{ Baastet }}} a GREAT BIG HUG!!!
<Kaodi> I tried the Half-Fire Elemental, hehehe
* Baastet bows before Darth Tika , What is your bidding, My Mistress
<Sutekh> Buy her erotic candles )
<Tika> Baastet is my padawan learner
<Tsunami> How'd you divide it up, Kaodi?
<Kaodi> Actually, templates and the sorcerer bloodlines work cool together...
<Baastet> Aprrentice .. padwan is for the *spit* jedi
* Baastet grins evilly at darth tika
<Tika> ah, well done my apprentice ;)
* Tika was testing Baastet
<Tika> hehehe
<Baastet> hehehe
<Baastet> Sute She doesn't need erotic candles she can make em herself
<Baastet> ^_^
<Tsunami> So anyways, any other house rules you folks would like to discuss?
<Kaodi> Err, I only started it, hehehe... I gave it the + Dex at and , and + Int and Cha at .
<raleel-laptop> we merged several skills
<raleel-laptop> but nothing more strenuous than that
<Tsunami> Like what, raleel?
<raleel-laptop> spot/listen
<Tsunami> I've considered doing that as well
<raleel-laptop> into perception
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<raleel-laptop> wilderness survival and something else
<Baastet> Tika I think we distracted and flustered young Tsunami .. Shall I attack?
<raleel-laptop> and a couple of the social ones
<Tsunami> I combined spot and read lips, disable divice and open lock, innuendo and sense motive, wilderness lore and intuit direction
* Tsunami goes on total defense
* Baastet scoots away form DM workshop
<Kaodi> Tsunami> I am a fan of symetry, even if only seems symetrical to me, hehehe
<Baastet> Move along move along nothing to see here
<raleel-laptop> we're debating allowing "firing a missile weapon defensively" like "casting defensively"
<Tsunami> Hm...
<Tsunami> That's interesting
<Kaodi> Tsunami> That sounds like v., hehehe
<Tsunami> Kaodi- Heh, I wouldn't know
* Tsunami hasn't udated
<Tsunami> er... updated
<IIsiMHz> Konbanwa, minnasan, Baastetkun
<raleel-laptop> nod, . provoked part of our look at concentration
* raleel-laptop is co dm in an arcana unearthed campaign
<Alex_Knight> Casting defensively is a bit... well, after a while, you can never fail to cast defensively.
<Tsunami> How do you mean, Raleel? What did you do with concentration?
<Tsunami> Just like tumble, eh Alex?
<raleel-laptop> using concentration for firing missiles defensively
<Alex_Knight> Exactly.
* IIsiMHz gets whumped to the floor
<Baastet> Meowbanwa, IIsikun
<raleel-laptop> don
<Tsunami> Now that's interesting, raleel
<raleel-laptop> 't have it in front of me..does v. add in the spell level into the casting defensively roll?
<IIsiMHz> Genki? Baaskun
<Alex_Knight> I'm considering making it so that you have to beat spell level + opponent's highest melee bonus.
<raleel-laptop> AU has the cast defensively roll as +spell level
<Alex_Knight> same as au.
<raleel-laptop> nod
<raleel-laptop> ya, it makes it harder
<raleel-laptop> after looking at AU's magic system, i'm not sure i'll be able to play a wizard again
<IIsiMHz> allo Nichar, jezter
<Baastet> hi jez
<Baastet> hi ni
<jezter> yo
<Nichar> hi iisimhz & baastet
<Tsunami> I've considered using the Tumble vs Attack Bonus rule
<raleel-laptop> nod, there are a few of those that have some abuse potential
* Nichar wants to have UA in front of him now
<Vaxalon> You have to make sure that tumble skill advances fast enough to stay useful if you keep pumping it
<Tsunami> Raleel- In a campaign I've been designing, I've been using arcane magic from Arcana Unearthed and Divine Magic from D&D
<Tsunami> Vax- That's my biggest argument against implementing the rule
<raleel-laptop> using the spell slots and spells readied, Tsunami?
<Tsunami> Yup, raleel
<Tsunami> But divine magic was still D&D
<raleel-laptop> and divine spells are more defined
<Tsunami> And I changed the bard to divine magic
* IIsiMHz wiggles out from under the Labrador Teektriever
<raleel-laptop> you might look at the complete book of eldritch might and use that bard
<Alex_Knight> Well, it doesn't make sense that it should be just as easy to weave and duck say a first level mage as it is to weave and duck say a th level Fighter with two weapons and all Focuses and Specializations.
<Tsunami> That's an interesting point, Alex
<raleel-laptop> Alex_Knight if i were to implement that, I would drop the base chance by , but then add in the BAB
<Kaodi> Why not have a base defense bonus?
<Kaodi> Ala d Modern?
* raleel-laptop doesn't have d modern
<Nichar> or swrpg
<Tsunami> Arcana Unearthed also uses that for its Unfettered class
<raleel-laptop> it has a bonus to ac, ya
<IIsiMHz> allo vax
<raleel-laptop> a semi-monk-like bonus
<Alex_Knight> Nono, It wouldn't be + BAB + Spell Level, It would be Opponent's Highest Melee + Spell Level. Well, maybe + or + as well.
<Tsunami> Hm...
* AltReality (AltReality@chat.psionics.net) has joined #dnde
* chat.psionics.net sets mode +q AltReality
* AltReality sets mode -q AltReality
* AltReality sets mode +o AltReality
<Tsunami> hello alt!
<Nichar> Hi AltReality
<Tsunami> Welcome to my lair...
<raleel-laptop> Alex_Knight nod, +spell+bab might work
<raleel-laptop> it'd be pretty easy at lower levels
<raleel-laptop> but get progressively harder
<AltReality> Greets folks
<raleel-laptop> howdy
<Godspore> 'lo
<IIsiMHz> Allo AltReality
<thatdarncat> night all, sleep time
<Sutekh> Alt.. you better stay for this. DM Worshop )
<Nichar> thatdarncat night
* thatdarncat is now known as thatdarnbed
<Silvr_Dragon> Seeya tdb
<raleel-laptop> running a DM, player AU game has been an experience
<Tsunami> Say Alt, what house rules do you use in your campaigns?
<IIsiMHz> night thatdarnbed sleeper cat
* Baastet flufy the pillows on thatdarnbed and turns down the sheets
<Baastet> Night tdb
* Silvr_Dragon notices baastet
* Silvr_Dragon pounces
* IIsiMHz sprinkles catnip on tdc
<Silvr_Dragon> mya!
<NiTessine> Good morning, folks.
<AltReality> uuhh...I dunno...not alot..we stick fairly close to the books...if we come across something that doesn't seem right, we change it.
* Baastet sighs
<raleel-laptop> what time saving things do other DMs use?
<Baastet> Silly dragon * Baastet pounces on Silvr_Dragon and puts pokemon stickers all over him (see see I noticed you!)
<raleel-laptop> things to make the game more run efficiently
<Tsunami> Often I give NPC's over to characters to control during combat
<Harlock> time saving if using minis, get the one you expect to use that session out and behind the screen before your players arrive.
* AltReality uses plastic money and pouches and as many real-world props as possible.
<Tsunami> I fully agree, Harlock
<Tsunami> That's interesting, Alt
<Tsunami> You use plastic money for gold pieces
<raleel-laptop> we have DMs, use a yahoo group
<raleel-laptop> we handle a lot over email
<AltReality> airline alcohol bottles...make great potions
<raleel-laptop> initiative cards, excel spreadsheets
<AltReality> (filled with kool-aid and such)
<Tsunami> Heh heh heh
<Tsunami> I often just write down initiative in lists
<AltReality> initiative cards....yes I do that
<Harlock> time saving initiative cards OR a paper sized- whiteboard to jot down init order and track HPs on. On Deck is another As you announce whose turn it is, also annonce who is next so they can decide what they want to do.
<Tsunami> Works best for me
<raleel-laptop> nod, that's what i do, harlock
<Tsunami> Good idea on announcing who's next, Harlock
<Tsunami> I would do that, but my players seem to know before I do
<Tsunami> )
<raleel-laptop> we put a time limit on deciding actions
* Nichar leaves and haunts aim as buddha the dm
<AltReality> problem is when they get to higher levels and want to throw simple skels at em...
<AltReality> like... skeletons vs PCs...lotsa rolling )
<Tsunami> I always threated to have the characters "spend the round hesitating" if the players don't decide fast enough
<Tsunami> Alt- heh
<AltReality> Thats what my old DM had problems with
<Harlock> that's great... my players are a little inattentive at times because we're all family and get distracted with typical conversation etc. and I'm not a complete tyrant about being in-character all the time
<raleel-laptop> AltReality excel spreadsheet can help you there...a single macro can roll all those dice
<AltReality> me either...we usually talk for like an hour before we really start the game
<raleel-laptop> lol, ya, we talk a lot too
<AltReality> goodpoint raleel...but I don't have a laptop )
<Harlock> same here, Alt
<Tsunami> Same here, Alt
<Tsunami> )
<Harlock> get outta my head, Tsu!
<Sutekh> feh Laptops
<Sutekh> Dodgy little breakable things
<Tsunami> You get out of mine, Harlock!
<raleel-laptop> most if my players are computer folks at the same corp...we all have laptops )
<Tsunami> )
<Harlock> Another time saver is for your non-random encounters, go ahead and have a plan of action for the monsters based on terrain etc.
<AltReality> which corp is that?
<raleel-laptop> the other DM and i use instant messanger for conversing in game
<Sutekh> alt ocp
<raleel-laptop> www.pnl.gov
<Tsunami> heh
<raleel-laptop> national lab )
<Sutekh> He works in Special Projects at OCP
<Tsunami> Hello Phoenix!
<Phoenix> Hello Tsunami. Do I know you by a different handle?
<Phoenix> hey sollir!
<raleel-laptop> let's see, what else do we do...
<Tsunami> Nope, Phoenix
<Tsunami> I'm just a friendly dude
<Phoenix> k
<raleel-laptop> we split DM tasks a lot, i do a lot of the NPC roleplaying, he handles most of the combat
<Phoenix> cool, just chaecking ya know...
<raleel-laptop> i herd players
<Tsunami> Do you guys DM at the same time?
<raleel-laptop> nod
<raleel-laptop> ya
<raleel-laptop> players
* AltReality used to live in seattle
<raleel-laptop> very hard to run by yourself
<Tika> yikes yeah
<Tika> more than is tricky for me
<Tsunami> Wowsa
<raleel-laptop> ya, me too
<IIsiMHz> the more the merrier!
<Tika> I stink as a GM tho
<Tsunami> Next DM Seminar we'll probably be discussing "odd groups"
<Tika> LOL
<Tsunami> Big groups, small groups
<IIsiMHz> (as long as the GM is masterful)
<Tsunami> Epic level groups
<raleel-laptop> well, most of them are new players
* AltReality hasn't been in a game in like months unfortunately (
<Tsunami> Anyways, thanks for sticking around for the DM Seminar, folks!
<IIsiMHz> I did?
* IIsiMHz looks at tsu oddly
<Tsunami> You did in spirit, IIsi
<Tsunami> )
<raleel-laptop> heh, i just tried to keep it DM oriented
<AltReality> wish I made it for the beginning...didn't realize it was happening right now...
<Tsunami> It's okay
<IIsiMHz> Oh, thanks then
<IIsiMHz> And you're welcome
<Tsunami> I think this one is officially over, but the discussions can still continue
<Tsunami> Official time hour minutes
<Tsunami> new record for dm seminars!
<Tika> hehehe
<Sutekh> and I still learnt nothing (
<Harlock> woohoo, good show, Tsunami. I liked everyone's take, thanks for coming everyone.
<Harlock> but hey, hang out, chat, this channel is open / and I'm here for a lot of em
 

March 1, 2004: DM Workshop: High Level Gaming and Cut Scenes, hosted by Tsunami

Tsunami> dm workshop time!

* Velvet cheers

Tsunami> Hullo hullo hullo folks!

Neko_Ali> that's it, no more cooking. Let's see who's DMing reigns supreme!

Tsunami> And welcome to the Second Bi (or is it Tri?)- Weekly DM Workshop!

* Seri pouncer tackles huggles Tsunami ,meow! :)

Tsunami> For those new here, the DM Workshop is an "on topic" chat discussion

Tsunami> About whatever DMing topic we find appropriate

Tsunami> But if the "off-topic" bug bites

Tsunami> You can always talk about other things in #peanutgallery

Warmaster_Horus> hello

* ColonelThread waves

Tsunami> Welcome Horus, Colonel

Tsunami> Just in time

Tsunami> Before we get to tonight's main topic

Warmaster_Horus> Interesting trivia, one of the alternate names for Army of Darkness is "Captain Supermarket"

* Nichar casts summon ryand ix

KingOfLaw> Sledge as in CommandoSledge?

Tsunami> So before tonight's main topic, I'd like to ask:

Tsunami> Does anyone have any DM-related issues they'd like to discuss?

Warmaster_Horus> use of FX in the game

Sledge> King: yes

KingOfLaw> Heya :)

Warmaster_Horus> Verbose or brief descriptions

Tsunami> What do you mean by "FX," horus?

Tsunami> ah, i see

Tsunami> heh

* KingOfLaw is a member of the D20 PrC mailing list :P

Bibliophile> well, a side question related to the main topic, i'm going to be starting a high level campaign soon, and i've been wondering about any tips on introducing players to high levels

Sledge> ahh cool

Tsunami> Sounds good, Bibliophile

Warmaster_Horus> How high?

Nichar> KingOfLaw: There is such a list?

Bibliophile> 15 start

Tsunami> How many people use short descriptions of each attack in combat?

* Bibliophile tries to

Warmaster_Horus> depends on the pace of the combat

Silveras> Define "short" ;)

* Mugzug does for all monsters, until the general idea is conveyed

Sledge> My wife and I have level 37 characters....

* Psion is the owner of said mailing list

Tsunami> I usually give at least a brief description

Nichar> Psion: Cool. How do I get to it?

Tsunami> Say, "You chop into the lizardman's chest"

Tsunami> For the "final kill" I usually give a lengthy description

Tsunami> SOmething like:

* Geist Knowcks out psion, hides him behind the plants and takes his place on the judging panel

Warmaster_Horus> Brief description, sound FX and gestures are standard in my games

Psion> Ni - are you on yahoo groups?

Nichar> yes sir

Nichar> several

Tsunami> "Your axe flies through the air, burying itself in its chest. Black viscous blood splashes to the ground as it gives out a final hiss and collapses."

Psion> I think the proper title is d20 PrC. lemme check the join address

Nichar> ok

Psion> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/D20_prestige_classes/

KingOfLaw> Tsunami: I usually let my players do that, especially if its an online game.

Bibliophile> what about descriptions of rooms/areas?

Tsunami> KingOfLaw- while at first it was just me describing things as a DM, the players have started to as well

Tsunami> Bibliophile- good point

Bibliophile> how much is too much?

Nichar> Psion: Thanks.

Warmaster_Horus> Usually verbose, unless the players are in a hurry

Tsunami> Sometimes, when using maps, I find myself skipping descriptions

Tsunami> Although I do try to reinforce certain details

Psion> I remember getting verbose about a killing crit with a spiked chain and I grossed my players out

KingOfLaw> Bibliophile: Well, you don't want to describe something the PCs are supposed to find on their own :)

Tsunami> Say, "You make your way through the many stalagmites to the other side of the cavern."

Mugzug> I find I often say what the 'verbal' or 'somatic' or 'material' actions are in spells. Especially if players fail the spellcraft check to 'clue' them in on what is going on.

KingOfLaw> Grossing players out is part of the fun :P

Tsunami> Psion- Heh, I had that when a mind flayer popped another illithid's head and sucked out his brains

Warmaster_Horus> hi Kal

Warmaster_Horus> heh heh

Silveras> I like the new format in the latest Dungeon ... brief notes on what can be seen ,heard, smelled, etc. Paraphrase that, and you should be good.

Kalanyr> hello pita :p

Kalanyr> how long till hte DM workshop ?

Tsunami> It's a good idea, Silveras

Tika> 10 minutes ago, you missed it ;)

Silveras> Until the pick something to look at more closelym that is.

Tsunami> Kalarnyr- 10 minutes ago!

KingOfLaw> It started 11 minutes ago :P

Tsunami> :)

Silveras> That's when I'd start giving details.

Tsunami> Do you folks ever use NPC's to get characters to notice things?

Tsunami> I must admit I'm guilty of it

Warmaster_Horus> sometimes

KingOfLaw> heh

Silveras> A format like that appeared in an OLD Dragon magazine, before Dungeon came out.

Warmaster_Horus> but in what context are you refering to using NPCs

KingOfLaw> I had a bumbling old wizard trip and fall over a body in the dark, once.

Tsunami> Such as: "Keith, your Giant Eagle companion Lia suddenly says, 'Hey, did you notice anything weird about that column?"

Tsunami> Heh, that's funny KoL

Silveras> Heh ... my last party refused to take Spot or Search. They recruited an NPC Thief to do it for them.

DWizard> I've been know to have NPCs die in nasty ways to highlight the danger to the adventurers.

Tsunami> Ha ha ha

Warmaster_Horus> Not really but, I have had an NPC yell "Game over man! Game over!" and run headfirst into a lethal trap

Silveras> A party I currently play in has a Sorcerer with a net Spot of -2. His Hawk familiar (Spot +6) does most of that work for him.

Sutekh> So with high level games.. is it preferably as a GM to start the game off not so high and let the characters build friendships up to get to the high level.. or start them high and then see if they can form the same bonds?

Warmaster_Horus> well hi head kpt going

Warmaster_Horus> his

Tsunami> Sutekh- I enjoy starting at the lower levels

Tsunami> Building bonds and story arcs

Warmaster_Horus> Sutekh: I prefer the 1st one... but around lvl 1-5

Tsunami> I've never started a campaign above 1st level, in fact

Sutekh> and if you start them out pretty high.. would you get complaints about everyone not having 5 magical items each?

Tsunami> But I could see starting the campaign in media res

Psion> So, anyone heard anything about Encyclopedia Psionica: worldshapers?

Mugzug> Tsunami: Ever consider using wisdom or intelligence checks in case the PC's miss something?

Bibliophile> tsunami: what do you mean "in media res" ?

Tsunami> In the middle of things, Bibliophile

Mugzug> I usually pick the PC with the highest wis or int, and roll a DC 15-25 check (depending on obscurity) to see if they notice the missed key detail.

Bibliophile> ahh

Tsunami> MugZug- that's a good idea

ascendance> People I game with always have at least one person max out listen/spot.

* KingOfLaw thinks Horus watched Aliens too much :P

ascendance> Its amazing the people you game with don't.

Mugzug> Then I pass the note if they make it.

Sutekh> Tsunami: If you start of low to get to high. How long will that take?

Sutekh> level every game?

Sutekh> every 2 games?

ascendance> People I game with tend to forget stuff like Disable Device :)

Ostler> If you start them around 10th level they can balance cool items with time to develop relationships before going epic

Sledge> Sutekh if characters want to start at high levels it is often effective to have them meet only then

Tsunami> Sutekh- well, my game went for about a year, and the characters reached 10th level

Sutekh> k

Sutekh> Well Im in game.

ascendance> My party's around 10th level, and its going for about 2 months.

Tsunami> wow

Sutekh> Ive been playing roughly every week for about a Year or so more

ascendance> They started around 7-8.

Sutekh> and im 6th

ascendance> They started around 7. And they're around 10 or 11, actually.

Sutekh> mid range towards 7th

Sledge> Sutekh 52 + games?

Sutekh> yup

Sledge> how long do you play?

ascendance> People I game with prefer fast advancement.

Sutekh> 4-5 hour sessions

ascendance> 3-4 hour sessions, but sometimes twice in weekend.

Sledge> and how many encounters?

Sutekh> lol

Psion> Anyone have dawnforge?

Sutekh> how am I supposed to remember

Tsunami> We have 7 hour sessions on average

Sutekh> ...um

Sledge> guess. :)

Sutekh> perhaps 2 encounters

Sutekh> maybe occasoinaly 1

Sutekh> sometimes 3

Sutekh> But rarely

Tsunami> So who here has actually DMd or played in High Level Games?

Tsunami> We'll say "Above 10th level" for high level

ascendance> I have.

Warmaster_Horus> I have

Sutekh> not me

heimdall> I have.

Psion> We gather for about 6 hours but BS for half of it. ;)

DWizard> I have

Sutekh> My highest level was 10th level Drow Invoker

* Dredge hasn't

* Velvet says nope

Ostler> I run a game that started at 10th and when we restart will be at 20th

Sledge> so 30 hours per level and 15 encounter

Bibliophile> i will be running one soon :D

ascendance> I played an Epic level game.

Psion> My last 3e campaign got to 22nd level

Warmaster_Horus> But I was the only high level, I had a PC at lvl 15, while the others had 2-9

Sledge> roughly 4 times as slow as "normal"

Silveras> My players managed to get a TPK well before 10th level. Every time.

Ostler> there are 5-6 players, some playing 2 characters

Silveras> 9th is their highest, historically. ;) 2nd Edition.

ascendance> When my party gets too high level, I'll just send them off into Planescape.

Sledge> ran some 2e high level...

Sutekh> I dont tend to like that

Sutekh> people playing 2 characters at same time

Sledge> a little 3rd

Tsunami> What do you find is the main difference between "High Level Adventuring" and "Low Level Adventuring?"

* Mugzug is dming high level

Sutekh> Money

Sutekh> Im always poor.

Warmaster_Horus> Scope of things

Psion> Started at 1st as a 2e game, converted to 3e at 2nd level, advanced to 22nd level over 2 years

ascendance> The annoying complexity of creating and running encounters.

DWizard> Transportation and spells

Sledge> currently me and my wife semi-free form with our 30 somethings chars.

Mugzug> The fact that you have to think about general 'situations' as opposed to encounters overall.

Silveras> I agree.. transportation and magical answers to mundane obstacles.

Ostler> Transportation and gathering information

ascendance> Transportation is a big one. But I always think of transportation as a good thing.

Psion> Biggest Problem With High level adventures: Iterative Attacks!

Sutekh> the fact that some characters can fly and others are still riding their original horses :)

Warmaster_Horus> Low level adventuring usually involves an area the size of a state ost of the time IME, high level ones have global scope consequence

Tsunami> I agree

Warmaster_Horus> most

ascendance> Maybe its because I play a lot of modern games, and like the options involved in having lots of travel.

Tsunami> What techniques do you think have to change between DMing low level adventures and high level adventures?

ascendance> Many people see fast travel as a bad thing. I think its a good thing.

Sutekh> That is a good point those asc

Sutekh> All of this has been about Fantasy high level games

ascendance> Greater familiarity with the rules is a big one, Tsu.

Sutekh> What about modern high level games

Sutekh> or sci fi high level games

Silveras> Villains need to be savvier about their spells.

Tsunami> Ascendance- I agree with the fast travel = good comment

Bibliophile> how much harder is it actually to "stay ahead" of the players?

Mugzug> Using nondection, nystuls magic aura, and actually knowing what your npc's can do.

Psion> Greater willingness to wing it. ;)

heimdall> Tsunami: more intelligent enemies in general... there is a reason they are high level.

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Bigger things... Bigegr plots, bigger villains, bigger consquences... You need to work those out before plunging into the game

Psion> Having strategic villains

Ostler> High level bad guys don't survive to be high level without being intelligent.

DWizard> High level adventures require more planning

Silveras> The TPKs I mentioned often happened because the PLAYERS failed to adjust their tactics to the changing nature of their opponents.

Sutekh> i think it forces Gms to do more work. High level characters means the gm cant just rock up to a game and make it up. Gotta do some prep or the players are gonna go so far outside the box they will find their own box

Sledge> economics are big

Tsunami> From reading online I find that the entire nature of the "adventure" changes

Warmaster_Horus> And players in high-level games have bigger effect on their enviroment since their powers are geometrically greater

Tsunami> Instead of raiding a dungeon to save the princess

Mugzug> Also picking your spells is a major problem. A lot of high level wizards are not going to use offensive 1st through 4th level spells due to saves. I try to find my buff spells in that area.

Tsunami> You're summoning armies to save an entire race

Sledge> with Epic there is rarely an actual "adventure" unless a dungeon is entered.

ascendance> Sutekh: That's a big problem with high level. However, I think that's just part of a problem with D&D and D20 in general. Its much easier to run, say, Amber or Hero Wars at high levels with less prep.

Warmaster_Horus> Indeed

Sutekh> Tsumai: Not neccesarily. I fought Kobold and ORcs at level 1. Im still fighting them at level 5 and 6

DWizard> Hats off to Amber for high level play

ascendance> The problem with high level really is prep.

tecnowraith> hello

ascendance> At the same time, its harder to prep, because players can go more places and do wierder stuff.

Tsunami> Well what techniques do you think a DM can use to help prepare for High Level games?

Psion> Anyone ever read my Drow thread?

heimdall> Sutekh: My players were afraid of kobold hordes when they were 2nd. Now they're afraid of a new tribe of kobold psions and the PCs are 7th.

Tsunami> Welcome to the DM Workshop, Technowraith!

Bibliophile> do you have any tips for introducing players to high level plots?

tecnowraith> I remembered this time

Sutekh> Heimdall: I dont think its right to just put down a monster when there is no reason for monster to be there

Psion> "Players meet plot; plot, meet players"

Sutekh> I know RPGing is about fantasy

Warmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Blast from the past... A villain that was defeated long time ago resurfaces

Sutekh> but players also expect some level of reality

Tsunami> Bibliophile- from what I've read, the players often find their own plots

Ostler> Anybody ever heard of Tucker's Kobalds?

ascendance> I think a big help for the DM is to come up with a few key high level NPCs, and then find some appropriate high level monsters.

Tsunami> At that level they have a ton of contacts

Sutekh> Giving levels to the lower level creatures is a good idea

Sutekh> I think

Silveras> Don't be so fixed on running "your plot" that get mad when the players go in another direction.

Bibliophile> i was thinking of starting off the campaign with an intentional TPK, and then having the characters raised hundreds of years later by a desperate society

Tsunami> That's an interesting idea, Bibliophile

tecnowraith> well most people here know that I have been building a world and ask opions and help

heimdall> Sutekh: agreed.

Tsunami> But you may want to be careful

ascendance> Bibliophile, I'm not sure I'd enjoy that, but you can try it. Smacks too much of bait and switch.

BardStephenFox> Heh - Tucker's Kobolds were great. My players fear all creatures great and small.

tecnowraith> opinions i mean

ascendance> On the other hand, its fair to say that all the characters have been brought together because they've been raised by a future society.

Tsunami> Bibliophile- I'd suggest just having the total party kill be flavor text before the campaign starts

Sutekh> Im playing a Halfling Paladin in said game. Ive learnt to fear kobolds and orcs now because they are some nasty fighters

Sutekh> esp when desperate

Tsunami> heh

ascendance> And you could run short sessions for each player about the events leading up to the character's death, like a prelude in Vampire.

Warmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Indeed... make it a cutscene

Ostler> Tucker Kobolds demonstrates that high level parties can be easily challenge with goo tactics, and intelligent bad guys

Psion> Well all, gonna run

BardStephenFox> Part of the key to keeping the "easy monsters" a challenge is to give them a believable leader.

Warmaster_Horus> bye Psion

Mugzug> Biblio: Not a bad idea... I can always use that as a backup in case I do TPK.

Bibliophile> hrm...

Warmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Cutscenes re good to

Sutekh> if you start adding classes like Eyes of Grumush to orcs and stuff.. then they start to get real nasty

Bibliophile> how do you guys do cutscenes et all?

tecnowraith> I have question for my world building

Bibliophile> i haven't had much success with those in the past

Warmaster_Horus> I have one at the start of the campaign

ascendance> describe what happens.

Tsunami> You mean you want to discuss... a tangent on cutscenes?

Tsunami> :)

DWizard> I've never used a cut scene

Sutekh> I cant say ive seen a cutscene used in a long time

BardStephenFox> My players probably know enough that if they see well coordinated easy guys, they have a nasty villian in the background. Then they have to figure out who/what is causing the organized mayehm.

KingOfLaw> Only in video games :P

Warmaster_Horus> Usually have one every 3 r so sessions, to keep the players, not the PCs, up with what's happening

heimdall> Bibliophile: I preface it with "cut scene" to let 'em know. Then I tell the tale like it was a story.

Tsunami> Horus- describe what you mean by a "cut scene"

ascendance> The last cutscene in my campaign happened when Bane appeared, destroyed the shield of Gargauth, and absorbed the life force of everyone in Hillsfar :)

BardStephenFox> My playes love cut scenes!

Silveras> Cutscenes feel to much like a movie or videogame for my taste (too much a spectator thing).

Tsunami> Or give us an example

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Sure here is what I did...

tecnowraith> guess I have to wait

Sutekh> What I do is post last weeks game happenings on a website

ascendance> A pair of players witnessed the whole thing from a nearby hillside.

Sutekh> That way players can keep up with what is going on

heimdall> Silveras: they should be used to heighten the game... overdone and they are quite boring.

Sutekh> and I keep a record

Sutekh> for others to read

BardStephenFox> I once used a cutscene to show the falling of a distant city to an undead army.

Sutekh> I think Pictures are better than a thousand words sometimes

BardStephenFox> Over the next several session, the PC's met survivors fleeing.

Sutekh> Showing a picture of a burning city

Sutekh> or town

Tsunami> I've used a cutscene to describe what an NPC under the paladin's Leadership was seeing

Sutekh> some people use music of people screaming of fire noise and stuff

Sutekh> Which I find good

BardStephenFox> A picture would have been good, except the entire setup was supposed to indicate that somethign went wrong.

tecnowraith> I have a question that someone can help

Tsunami> I once used some Didgeridoo music to describe the strange roar of this manticore in the mists

Tsunami> What's that, tecno?

BardStephenFox> The city barely mounted a defense. The last portion was three ships fleeing. Then, fireballs flew out from one,destroying the other two.

tecnowraith> well most here know I am building a world and setting

Warmaster_Horus> I had a group in anadventure that took place about 10 yrs after the first adventure... the BBEG was the husband of the BBEG from te previous adventure, but the heroes never confronted him... I used him in a cutscene that showed a black armored and unidentified assailant breaking into the hall of a king single handedly and killign everyone in there and at the very last burning the king himself... oh incidentally the king was involved in the death of his wife

Sutekh> ooh thats a point. I mentioned it yesterday. What do people think of GMs ripping off recent release movies because they are running out of ideas?

BardStephenFox> Yeah Warmaster, I like that stuff.

ascendance> I think TDC should be here for that question, Sut.

Sutekh> like suddenly being involved in a Helms Deep esque battle against a horde of evil?

Tsunami> Horus- did you find that the players had trouble seperating their out-of-game and in-game knowledge?

tecnowraith> Is better to flavored classes for a science fantasy world at 20 levels or at 10 level progression?

Tsunami> Sutekh- As long as the players don't mind, I think it's fine

ascendance> tecno: I'd recommend 10 level progression so you can use D20 Modern.

Tsunami> Tecno- I agree with ascendance

* Sledge (~Sledge@h68-144-187-142.cg.shawcable.net) has joined #dnd3e

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: No, but my players are good at that

heimdall> The last time I significantly used a cut scene was when the party was depending on an NPC invoker to make it to the docks to get some aid. They'd adventure a little, I'd cut to the NPC and the progress he had made. They were extremely worried he wouldn't make it.

thatdarncat> sut, I'll have a link for you in a minute

Sutekh> link to where?

DWizard> Nothing wrong with playing or running a movie as long as the end result isn't written in stone

Tsunami> That's very cool, heimdall

Tsunami> I'll have to use that

BardStephenFox> My players never had their PC's use out of game knowledge, but the players themselves loved speculating on what was happening.

ascendance> But now is the wrong time to ask that question, because most recent movies have been teh suck.

Sledge> even better if the ending isn't available

tecnowraith> I do not like attribute classes and to me it does not fit my world

Sledge> change just enough to throw the characters off

Sutekh> SWizard.. I dont know... I think its a cool factor that isnt so good for games

Seri> Hi lo Guest you can change your nick by typing /nick new nick where "new nick" is your chosen nick :)

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: But I like the tension and foreshadowing that cutscenes build... If done properly that is

Tsunami> I find I have trouble not using stuff from movies

Silveras> See, I work differently. I *never* give the players info their characters would not have.

Sutekh> 'It would be cool if I could fit that battle in this game even if it dosnt fit the current tone of the game'

Tsunami> I was pondering some At Sea encounters

thatdarncat> re using recent movies for ideas: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78827 (SERI STAY OUT!)

Tsunami> And I was thinking: A pirate captain with a crew of... skeletons! Yeah!"

BardStephenFox> Silveras, why not?

Tsunami> And then, of course, I realized my mistake

Tsunami> :)

Seri> like i listen

Seri> click click

Sutekh> well who was talking about using a crew of Wood Golems?

Sutekh> and having a pirate democracy?

Silveras> Because they enjoy discovering things through their characters.

Warmaster_Horus> Vax I think

thatdarncat> bah she looked

thatdarncat> seri sucks!

ascendance> For the next story arc in my campaign, I'm ripping off a past campaign.

heimdall> Silveras: I tend to if it passes a simple test: 1) it heightens the game and 2) having the out-of-game info doesn't provide a signficant assist

Tsunami> Sutekh- That's me!

Sutekh> you

Tsunami> And I've still got my Op boot out for kicking!

Tsunami> :)

Sutekh> That made me laugh for ages :)

tecnowraith> did yall get get my reply?

Sutekh> Pirate Democracy

ascendance> tecnowraith: Why don't they fit? They're designed to be generic.

Sutekh> heheh

Tsunami> One of these days, Sutekh!

Silveras> I also tend to run suspense-based plots. Giving info kills the suspense.

Sutekh> yup

BardStephenFox> Silveras, my players love learning plenty of things through their PC's. But, they also like knowing more about the campaign world. The above city scene was over 1000 miles away.

Sutekh> one of these days you will realise Pirates are bloodthirsty criminals

tecnowraith> yeah but this world is not very genertic, its on a different world, not earth

Sutekh> who prey on the week :)

heimdall> Techno: I can understand your feelings about the attribute classes. you could do something similar to base classes that get built on, though, even with 10 level progression.

Tsunami> When I think up cutscenes, I try to figure out a way for the characters to observe them

Sutekh> They dont sit around a UN table discussing who to pillage next :)

tecnowraith> heimdall, I thought about doing that

Sutekh> I think in a Pirate Isles setting Tsunami that makes more sense

Nichar> Hi Morrus

Tsunami> Welcome to the DM Workshop, Morrus!

Morrus> Hello

* Seri pouncers Morrus ,meOw :)

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Try to not to show the face of the BBEg that much... Have shots of him from the back or neckdown or so

Warmaster_Horus> !apok

* Golem kicks Warmaster_Horus in the junk and takes your wallet!

Tsunami> Any DM issues you're interested in discussing?

Bibliophile> tsunami- if the characters are directly observing the scene, doesn't that run the risk of them interferring?

Silveras> Besides, I also tend not to have a "hidden story" to share... my players surprised me often enough that I no longer have a "grand plot"

Tsunami> Bibliophile- That's why I end up not using cutscenes much :)

Bibliophile> lol

ascendance> I find its hard to do stuff without a grand, overarching plot.

Warmaster_Horus> indeed

Tsunami> Same here, ascendance

heimdall> Tecnowraith: From a real world example, look at the way the US Air Force does their enlisted ranks for a job specialty. They have 3 levels, 5 levels, 7 levels, as we called them. they were supposed to represent (a) different levels of knowledge in the career field and (b) different levels of responsibilities.

BardStephenFox> Silveras - Fair enough. Obviously, I would disagree to some degree, but I inderstand what you are saying.

tecnowraith> so doing a 10 level base class, then the advance will be fun to do?

DWizard> Long term plots are very important

Tsunami> What I try and do, though, is give enough small hooks for the characters to decide what to do

Silveras> Generally.. I prefer to have an overall plot.

ascendance> Though I wonder if setting it in stone so the gods of evil and good are doomed to die will work...

Sutekh> Tsunami: How do you handle those in between sessions. The pcs have just finished a quest and have gone to a town to get stuff identified. Some characters need to level up and you give them a time to do so and other characters dont and are immediatly bored

Tsunami> One difficulty I find is making a plot in which new characters could join at any time

Silveras> But my players (recently) have not been "plot oriented".

Sutekh> esp at higher levels

Tsunami> Sutekh- Usually there's enough "little plot hooks" to keep everyone satisfied, and not sitting around for a long time

Silveras> To quote one: "D&D should be like comics... lots of action and no thinking in between fights"

ascendance> I think I gave the players too many choices at some points, so they were a bit confused as to what they should do next.

Tsunami> In fact, I've never run into the above question

Tsunami> er... problem, not question

Warmaster_Horus> neither have I

Tsunami> Ascendance- I've had that problem

Sutekh> Tsunami: You dont think its a good idea to say to a player... dont worry about turning up to the session today?

DWizard> Plots based around wars are very easy to integrate new and old characters into

Sutekh> Cause they arnt involved in it

Tsunami> Wait, Sutekh, I never said that!

BardStephenFox> Sutekh - I run a game with 8 players. I find the play styles vary considerably and sooner or later somebody is bored. I try to handle levelling out of game, in email or before/after the session.

Sutekh> I know

ascendance> D&D is a bit like a supermarket display... people shouldn't have too much choice :)

Tsunami> The characters are always involved

Sutekh> But.. what do you think of the idea?

heimdall> Tecno: either way can be fun, it's really dependent upon the options, etc.

Sutekh> are they?

Tsunami> No, I think it's a terrible idea- the players are there to play the game

Warmaster_Horus> acutally when integrating new players steep level differences work IME

Tsunami> Why wouldn't you invite them?

tecnowraith> heimdall: I see what mean, the D20 Modern classes is now will not work for my world

Sutekh> What about the Wizard spending 5 weeks in seclusion making rolls to identify 100 potions?

Sutekh> Does he need to be at the session?

Sutekh> I dont see why

Tsunami> Sutekh- What about the player spending time in jail in Monopoly?

Sutekh> or the wizard crafting something

Sutekh> Cause they do that at high levels

Warmaster_Horus> But I don't think he would be doing that in the middle of the adventure

Silveras> Sutekh: That's something to do by e-mail between sessions.

Tsunami> I agree with Horus

Sutekh> Tsunami: I normally go on the toilet break at that point. :)

Sledge> one thing to remember is that these people are just friends...

Sutekh> Silveras: Not if the game isnt run like that

tecnowraith> I read Psion's review on Spellslinger and the way Brands were done

KingOfLaw> My PCs always craft stuff between adventures, unless the item in question is needed to further the plot.

Sutekh> those 5 weeks could be used by the rest of the party to adventure

Silveras> True. ;)

Sledge> they aren't (usually) married to each other

Sutekh> while the wizard stays behind

Warmaster_Horus> I mean when I usually run adventures, there isn't much time to take that long a break in between... Between adventures/campaigns though you can ave all the lulls you can have

tecnowraith> That seem interesting

Sledge> temporary splits are necessary.

ascendance> I generally don't have set episodic adventures. But I guess I kinda do.

Tsunami> Sutekh- well then they aren't really that much of a party if they're leaving characters behind

heimdall> Tecno: if I ran a modern scenario, I wouldn't use the D20 modern, either. It works, don't get me wrong, but not in the way I'd envision a world.

Sutekh> why?

Sutekh> The wizard says 'go... Im busy'

Tsunami> Sutekh- Because, in the end, it's the players abandoning another player

Sutekh> rest of the party says 'sure'

* KingOfLaw likes episodic adventures...

Sutekh> No its not

KingOfLaw> You're talking about one sh*t adventures, correct?

Silveras> Well, I must be going. Night, all

Sutekh> Its a player doing this stuff willingly

Tsunami> I mean, if the player of the wizard is fine with sitting around while the rest raid a dungeon, then it's fine

Jubelo> g'night all

KingOfLaw> um

KingOfLaw> shot

heimdall> I'm trying to encourage my players to develop secondary characters so their primaries can take some "time off"

Warmaster_Horus> Bye Silveras

KingOfLaw> -.-

Tsunami> See ya, Silveras, thanks for participating!

BardStephenFox> Sutehk - I have seen players with the need to adventure. I don't have good advice for you except to get them all invovled with responsibilities.

KingOfLaw> Sorry about that very bad typo

Sutekh> I think its worth it telling a player or 2 not to turn up for a session.

Seri> bad King :P

tecnowraith> hmm, so a futuristic fantasy world would work with a mix of both D20 Modern and 3.5

Tsunami> :)

Sutekh> You cant just fudge 5 weeks away

KingOfLaw> :(

Sutekh> Thats unfair to the other characters

heimdall> Sutekh: an option is letting the PC take time off, but giving the player say a key NPC to play.

KingOfLaw> Hey, it was an honest to goodness typo :P

BardStephenFox> Is it unfair?

Tsunami> Sutekh- What you seem to be suggesting is that players shouldn't show up for a session if their character isn't going to do anything

Sutekh> Sure

Tsunami> But I think you're leaving out the point that this is a game that friends come together to play

Sutekh> I dont have a problem with that

KingOfLaw> Bleh

heimdall> Tecno: It can. There are a lot of sci-fi stories that mix fantasy + sci-fi. so from a concepts perspective, it works. From a mechanics perspective there will need to be some meshing, but it is feasible.

KingOfLaw> They should still go to know what's happening.

ascendance> Well, I think my next adventure should be interesting for everyone and involve them all.

Warmaster_Horus> Sutekh: also party members turn out to be friends and companions too

tecnowraith> any suggestions?

ascendance> They're going to try and take over the city of Westgate, with or without the backing of Sembia. Which, in my campaign, is a Republic.

Tsunami> Sutekh- I think you just run a very different kind of game :)

tecnowraith> I am open to ideas

Sutekh> King: If their cloistered away there is no way they know what was happening elsewhere..

Warmaster_Horus> I don't think many friends would leave their companions to go off after danger by themselves

BardStephenFox> Well, it's your game Sutechk.

Sutekh> Actually no Tsunami. Im only playing the devils advocate here. Ive done it once and it was for a Druid training to fight the Heirophant.

Sutekh> that was way back in 2e

DWizard> Tecno: if you are looking for a mixture of tech and magic, take a look at Dragonstar

tecnowraith> I got that book

KingOfLaw> I'd only do it if the character couldn't possibly be used.

Warmaster_Horus> Another interesting thing that can be done is to split the groups up and run 2 games till they merge again

* KingOfLaw likes dragonstar ^_^

Sutekh> What happens if the player himself suggests that he will miss a week because he is cloistered away?

Tsunami> Sutekh- well, if you wouldn't mind, let's leave the devil out of this

Sutekh> lol

tecnowraith> DWEizard my question is more on classes

Tsunami> We're talking about what us DM's do

heimdall> Sutekh: if the player needs to miss a week, that's a convenient excuse.

Tsunami> Not what figuritive weirdo groups do

Tsunami> :)

Sutekh> Graazt then?

Nichar> KingOfLaw: So do I.. How hard is it to update to 3.5?

Tsunami> So, if you folks don't mind, let's gravitate back towards the main topic

Nichar> sorry...

Tsunami> Here's something I'm interested in:

* Nichar will be good now

BardStephenFox> I run a game and I play in a game. I have no problem with players that can't make it being absent. And as a player, I have no problem with the others wanting to do something else while I am crafiting items.

Sutekh> Sorry Tsunami.. I only brought this up because it will happen in higher level games

Sutekh> A wizard wants to make his items

Sutekh> A cleric wants to make his golems

Tsunami> For you gaming veterans, how has High Level Gaming changed throughout different editions?

Sutekh> and you do that at high levels :)

KingOfLaw> Not very hard. Most of the weapons rules and such are completely on their own. No such thing as a giant laser gun unless its on an actual space ship :P

Sutekh> ( I assume Clerics can still make Golems :) )

DWizard> Tecno: are you looking to make classes more generic or more specific?

KingOfLaw> o_o

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: The epic level is pretty much a game on ts own now...

BardStephenFox> Different through editions? Good question. I'm not sure I ever had a character legitimately make it above 11th level prior to 3.0

Nichar> kingoflaw: ok.

KingOfLaw> Well, depends on if clerics have fabricate.

Tika> (no, only cats can make Golems :) )

Tsunami> Horus- was that different back in 2e and 1st edition and OD&D?

heimdall> agreed. there is a significant difference once you hit epic with the epic feats, new magic, etc.

Sutekh> (I really hate cats :) )

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: ah I played AD&D not 1st ed D&D

Tsunami> Heh. I'm just spouting editions

Tsunami> Was that different in AD&D?

heimdall> In 1st edition AD&D it was possible for a relatively snuffy assassin to take out Merlin. I miss that possibility, albeit small.

Warmaster_Horus> Less powerful PCs, less powerful humans

Tsunami> Interesting

Sledge> multiclassing has been the major change I've noticed

Warmaster_Horus> Indeed

Tsunami> So do you think Epic Level Gaming is more powerful in 3.X?

Sutekh> lunch time :)

BardStephenFox> Yes, a high livel multi-classer was not that different from a singleclasser in terms of individual class power. but, the flexibility was a bg difference.

ascendance> Tsu: Not compared to Dark Sun :)

Warmaster_Horus> Indeed... I mean in AD&D the highest you could go was what? 30? and even then unless you had Quest spells there wasn't much difference

Sledge> a character that was 27/24 in second is now 35th level which leaves the character both less and more powerful

KingOfLaw> Actually, I saw a 40th level table

Sledge> epic level is potentially more powerful

Sledge> I ran stuff with the 2e High level book

Sledge> no limits

Sledge> even FRA had rules for 30some levels

Sledge> that reminds me I need some Epic phaerimm conversions still.

Tsunami> How about other systems?

Warmaster_Horus> High level?

Tsunami> You mentioned Amber. How does it handle Epic Level Gaming differently?

Neko_Ali> by playing Amber....

Neko_Ali> all the PCs are basically demi-gods, correct/

Sledge> the 2e book wasn't called Epic

Neko_Ali> ?

Warmaster_Horus> I liked WestEnd Star Wars, even though you had to load bucketfulls of dice at high level, if you had a computer geek in the group they could have written a dice roller to get rid of that problem

Sledge> "DM's Option High-Level Campaigns"

heimdall> Yup, I remember that book.

Sledge> very lame book mind you

heimdall> I wasn't a big fan of any of the option books

Songwind> 'lo

Sledge> iirc intro mentioned how the other thought the book was a bad idea

Tsunami> Do you think 3.x has handled High Level/Epic Level Gaming better than previous editions?

Nichar> Yes.

Warmaster_Horus> I think so

Sledge> better, unless you're a slave to CRs

heimdall> I think it has handled epic gaming better, but I dunno about the 10-20 range.

BardStephenFox> I think it scales better and gives you a lot more options for the character.

Songwind> I would cautiously say "yes"

Songwind> Though 7-12 remains my favorite level range.

Tsunami> In future editions, what do you think could be improved for high level/epic level gaming?

BardStephenFox> QAt one point, it would have been silly to watch a battle between a high level fighter and a high level wizard.

Sledge> because a power focused character will literally be a couple levels more powerful than a character that was developed for fun/story.

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Less of it

heimdall> I think going back to a fixed HP progression would be best. Having a barbarian continue to get 1d12. yowch!

Sledge> Easier encounter generation. :)

Warmaster_Horus> I like how SWd20 keeps it simple and puts a lvl cap

Songwind> Divine beings shouldn't have stats. :P

Nichar> Why not?

Sledge> Songwind I think that has nothing to do with epic so much as Campaign style

Songwind> I just don't like for mortals to be able to truly rival the power of gods. It's just a personal preference thing :)

Nichar> ok

Songwind> Sledge: I know.. thus the :P

Sledge> I'm a big fan of Moorcock, stuff like like Corum..

Warmaster_Horus> Songwind: I like them to rival gods, but not in a systematic way

Songwind> Sledge: well, both Elric and Corum were enslaved to godlike beings themselves, so it's not quite the same thing.

Warmaster_Horus> I mean a mortal rivaling or figting a god should be rare occurance, and I think having stats and systems for it , just makes it banal

heimdall> agreed. there might be a way to defeat a god, but it's not by the power of one's swordarm

Tsunami> I think it's good, though, to at least have options for fighting gods

Sledge> Corum killed gods however

Warmaster_Horus> and I think fights between gods should be done in "cutscenes"

heimdall> Sledge, it's a matter of flavor and tone of the setting, I suppose. I prefer to keep my gods untouchable.

Warmaster_Horus> Sledge: How many Corums were there?

Songwind> Sledge: so did Elric. But, Elric had Stormbringer and Corum had the hand and eye, both of which were more or less divine in their own rights.

Songwind> And without them, they'd have been so much hero-butter.

Warmaster_Horus> How about splitting groups... are you for or against it?

Songwind> That is the sort of thing I can get into. Or godly avatars that can be taken out, or even gods which can perhaps be defeated but never permanently, like the Olympians.

Tsunami> I'm against splitting up groups

Tsunami> I think it stretches the session too much

Warmaster_Horus> Reasons?

Songwind> I don't mind splitting up groups from time to time.

Tsunami> And leaves players bored

Songwind> but not regularly

Warmaster_Horus> Splitting in a sense that half of the gorup doesn't come to that session

Warmaster_Horus> and the next session the other half doesn't attend

Tsunami> ah

Tsunami> I've done that in the past

Tsunami> The halfling barbarian's character couldn't make it

Sledge> Horus: one Corum

Tsunami> er, player, not character

Tsunami> :)

Tsunami> So I had the character fall down a pit

Tsunami> And then we played a seperate adventure in which the other players made new characters to run

Tsunami> Just to get the halfling back to the same level as the other characters

Tsunami> It worked well

Tsunami> But I've only done that twice in the campaign

Tsunami> How about the rest of you?

Tsunami> Splitting up the party: Yes or no?

Sledge> yes occassionally

BardStephenFox> My players sometimes run in different directions. It usually turns out less than good.

Sledge> I run back and forth between two tables until the players get the hint.

Warmaster_Horus> I like doing it sometimes... One time I had 2 players fall down a mine shaft and play 4 seperate session, while the other players mourned their loss, thinking that they were dead, and continued on the adventure

Songwind> Ah, splitting up like that I haven't ever done.

Warmaster_Horus> Was a nice reunin at the end

BardStephenFox> But, I do my best to let them interact with the world in the way _they_ want to.

Songwind> Never had that many players for long enough to plan it :)

Warmaster_Horus> actually I am sorry it was 7 sessions not 4

BardStephenFox> At high levels, I think it becomes more likely that they will do that intentionally.

* Dredge wonders which horus is the real horus

Dredge> ;)

Horus> I just wanted the room to have 45 people disregard this Horus

BardStephenFox> When they are trying to get help from diverse sources, there is no reason not to use magic to get places fast.

Horus> I dont like 44

Tsunami> heh

* Songwind has very slightly nerfed magical transportation in his current campaign.

Warmaster_Horus> Well since I am running WH lately, teleportation is pretty much out of the question, so no headache for me

Tsunami> Has anyone here used High Level Modules in their games?

BardStephenFox> When you have teleports, telepathic bonds, sendings, plane shifts and a slew of other high level spells, you do have to be ready for your players to decide to do something really odd.

Warmaster_Horus> Not me

Ostler> I have a group in Banewarrens..but I think they are starting to get bored with it

Sledge> ran the 2e Labyrinth of Madness.

Songwind> Bard: That's for sure. I will never forget the first time I heard the words, "Maybe we should look for help on another plane?"

Mugzug> Actually the book of Eldritch Might by Monte Cook has some spells that address the teleport issue

Sledge> nothing in 3e I've seen is high enough yet.

heimdall> If you're used to running investigative games (CoC for instance), you have the same issue in a localized setting, though.

Warmaster_Horus> I could never work with modules... I end up turning them into my kinda adventures, so no need to sped money there :P

Songwind> I haven't used a prepared module for about 10 years I think.

Tsunami> wow

Warmaster_Horus> spend

heimdall> the last prepared module I used was L1 a long time ago.

Mugzug> As for modules, I use them as a basic idea. Then I completely change it.

BardStephenFox> I haven't bought a module since the 80's.

Tsunami> What do you folks most often change about the modules?

Mugzug> Just about everything.

Warmaster_Horus> I change everything

Neko_Ali> I just usually pull things like npcs and maps from adventures

Sledge> story, stats, names, bad architecture/ecology.

heimdall> I keep the basic outline of the map :)

BardStephenFox> When I use adventures, I localize them to my gameworld, then I will tweak them to accomodate the PC's so (hopefully) everyone has a valid role.

Songwind> When I did use them, I changed enough of hte background to make it fit into my ongoing campaign.

Mugzug> I consider them to be mere 'templates' from which I can build, change, add, or modify their story.

Warmaster_Horus> I make them low magic item intensive, change most of the monsters to NPCs, change the plots, etc etc

Neko_Ali> it's a rare adventure that actually makes me want to run it entirely

Songwind> Hmm.. the ladies are asking me to watch a movie. Gotta run :)

Tsunami> Heh, let me rephrase: What do you most often KEEP from modules?

Warmaster_Horus> byes

Tsunami> :)

Neko_Ali> but a lot of them are good sources for ideas

BardStephenFox> See you Songwind

Tsunami> Thanks for coming, Songwind!

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: The book, sometimes the pictures

Tsunami> heh

heimdall> Tsunami: the map

Ostler> Keep: Maps, new creatures/items, some story elements

BardStephenFox> But, High level modules just don't appeal to me. Usually, the PC's have developed into something completely different than the module anticipates.

Tsunami> Speaking of maps, when running a campaign, how much of the world do you usually map out?

Warmaster_Horus> Depends on the tone and level

BardStephenFox> Once you hae characters running around in the high teens, they are powerful enough that I don't think a rather generalized module works.

Warmaster_Horus> for low level and place-oriented, I map out the region and te surrounding regions... For others pretty much everything aside from "unknown" regions

BardStephenFox> Eh, I map out very little of the world, I'm lazy that way. I try to have enough so there are places to put ideas.

heimdall> Tsu: I like a lot of detail. I've run a spur-of-the-moment campaign before, but I try not to. I enjoy writing "lore."

Warmaster_Horus> Kilroy the BBC talkshow host?

Mugzug> I don't map the world. I map the movers and shakers of it. Anyone doing something I put down on paper.

Sledge> map

NiTessine> When I'm not using a ready campaign setting, I tend to use Generic Campaign Setting Mk.1... Meaning that the world is a tavern, a mysterious stranger, and the road to a dungeon, the map of which was lifted from Dungeon.

NiTessine> I hate drawing maps...

Mugzug> If I need a location, I just open the book, read the couple of paragraphs on it, and then wing it.

Ostler> I have a general map of the main continent, and a lot of non specific maps I insert as needed. Plus, maps of areas I expect the characters to visit in the next session or 3

Warmaster_Horus> I like drawing maps, but i like drawing the landscape or a view of a particular region more

thatdarncat> I've got a campaign setting I've slowly been adding to for years

thatdarncat> it's sort of become my default setting

Warmaster_Horus> Or I use oes from other sources

NiTessine> Hello, Kaodi.

BardStephenFox> As a question, what does everyone generally consider to be "High Level"?

Kaodi> Hello.

Kaodi> 15+

Warmaster_Horus> BardStephenFox: anything above 10 for me

kilroy> Upwards of 15th level,

NiTessine> Bard, double-digit levels...

Ostler> 10+

Tsunami> 10 and above for me

NiTessine> No campaign of mine has ever survived past sixth level.

Ostler> 20+ is "epic"

Kaodi> 15+ is high level, but anything double digits is fairly heroic.

Sledge> 15+

Tsunami> (although 10 is the highest I've ever run a game for)

BardStephenFox> How do you handle Legend Lore? By the books, 11+ is "lgendary".

Warmaster_Horus> for me... 1-5 is low, 6-10 medium, 11-15 high, 16-20 ultrahigh

Tsunami> I agree, Warmaster

kilroy> IMO, 11+ means that the character's stories *last*

kilroy> So they get a legend

Tsunami> Levels 6 to 10 are my favorite

Warmaster_Horus> I like 1-7

BardStephenFox> I am trying something new in my latest campaign. I am crating a god that manages legends and she requires quests to prove your worth every 5 levels.

Kaodi> I consider level 6 to be an experienced person, and level 7 to be a veteran.

Tsunami> 1-5 are fun to DM, but I don't think they're as fun to play in

Tsunami> That's interesting, Bard

NiTessine> Playing is fun, no matter what level...

kilroy> I think those are the hardest to GM.

kilroy> too easy to kill players with lucky shots at low levels.

Tsunami> What are you thinking for as quests, Bard?

Warmaster_Horus> on the contraire I like playing 1-5 the most

BardStephenFox> I have been thinking that if you don't want to quest, that's fine. But there needs to be a drawback.

Ostler> The characters in my high level game have made an impact on the world. The Cleric has a church be built in his honor. The psion a sect that studies to be like him. etc.

NiTessine> But DMing to the mid-levels is coolest, because I get to make interesting NPCs and monsters.

heimdall> I like 1-5 as a player... because a lot of planning is required to stay alive.

Ostler> It helps make them legends.

Warmaster_Horus> I like 1-5 because the scope is small... Not over the top like high level

Ostler> The other game I run in the same campaign world has heard of the characters in the high level game

Tsunami> Heh, that's neat Ostler

BardStephenFox> Interesting question. I was planning on tailoring the quests to make it interesting for each PC. So, I haven't decided yet.

Tsunami> What have they heard?

heimdall> In my old group we did that a lot. Shadowrun was a perfect example. The characters we played previously became contacts for our new ones.

Ostler> In fact, they have a statue of the psion, though they don't know it's signifigance.

Ostler> They found it, and decided to keep it. Nobody seems sure why... :)

Tsunami> Heh, that's cool

Sledge> I like it from 9 up

BardStephenFox> I think the key is that I will have the drawback for not questing being an exp penalty. That helps keep NPC's a bit lower level. The advaantage is that you are much less likely to be "noticed".

Tsunami> Say, on a Tangent, here's another topic:

BardStephenFox> So, maybe a high level assassin never quested and some of the common divinations don't work. I think it will throw them for a lopp later on in the game.

Tsunami> How have you folks used Intelligent Items in your campaigns?

Warmaster_Horus> yes

Neko_Ali> tsu: very rarely

kilroy> Rarely in 3e. Overmuch in 2e.

Tsunami> (I suppose it's sort of High Level- it's part of high level treasure, right?)

Warmaster_Horus> I used a sword that had a daemon prince in it

Sledge> not yet in third...

NiTessine> Tsu, I haven't...

Ostler> Gotta run. L8r.

Warmaster_Horus> byes

Tsunami> See ya, Ostler!

Sledge> a few times in 2nd

Tsunami> Thanks for coming!

Tsunami> I like the idea of a weapon having a god living in it

Warmaster_Horus> I used it to act as a gateway for a PC to Chaos

BardStephenFox> Heh - I have had 2 intelligent items in the last few games. The first was a quested item for the local lord. They didn't really want it anyway.

NiTessine> They've never reached a level high enough to justify anything more than a dagger with a magic mouth.

kilroy> Blade of Tyshall?

heimdall> I haven't yet in 3rd. I did it when appropriate in 1st and 2nd.

NiTessine> I've noticed I also tend to be very stingy with magic items.

Warmaster_Horus> I run about 1 maybe 2 magic items per group

NiTessine> In that last 6th-level game, they had a wand of magic missiles and a +1 longsword, and that's it.

Neko_Ali> though it would be interesting to have a cursed intelligent item with telepathy, always telling the PC in his head that it read his party member's minds and they're out to get him :)

BardStephenFox> The second was a gift from a god to his mortal hero. When the hero died, to a nasty outsider trying to devour his soul, his god put a fragmentt of his pesonality into the sword.

Warmaster_Horus> brb

heimdall> Neko_Ali: I've done something similar.

BardStephenFox> So, the survivors were left with an intelligent item based on the heroic charater.

kilroy> I try to run right at the DMG magic item values, maybe a bit high. But I make sure it's fairly rich in potions and expendables.

Tsunami> I like the fact that there's a 1 percent chance any items is magical

Tsunami> er, intelligent

Tsunami> :)

Tsunami> I once rolled up an intelligent necklace of prayer beads

BardStephenFox> Whoa.

kilroy> Excluding expendable items.

Kaodi> I had an idea for a few cursed items... something like, " The Anarchist's Review - +5 bonus to knowledge (history), knowledge (nobility and royalty); +5 intelligence; alignment permanently moves one step closer to chaotic )

kilroy> Robe of blending 3 speeds. Works normally on small creatures. Inflicts 3d6 to medium, 5d8 to large.

NiTessine> Hmm. Interesting idea I must try sometimes... A PC is killed by a magically unstable weapon, and his personality is fused into the blade.

Tsunami> That's interesting, kaodi

kilroy> Sorry, that's a semi-cursed item.

Tsunami> That's a good idea, NiTessine

Tsunami> Especially if a player wants to try a new character out for a little while

* Tsunami sometimes gets that urge

Sledge> So what tools do people here use to speed up encounter generation?

NiTessine> Of course, with my normal group, the weapon would start playing members of the group against each other, and gain a backbiter enchantment...

Mugzug> kaodi: But what if he is already chaotic? Maybe he has to act out chaotically once a week in some radical fashion?

BardStephenFox> I manually create encounters.

Kaodi> No, the item is merely designed to bring the reader closer to the writers viewpoint.

heimdall> Cursed Item: +2 Berserking Sword... Additional Benefit of +2 Strength. The player who had it loved it. The rest of the party worked quickly to divest him of it.

Tsunami> Sledge- I manually make them

Tsunami> Beforehand

Tsunami> Heimdall- Heh

NiTessine> Heimdall, even better... a sword amulet that transforms into a short, long, bastard or greatsword when the proper command word is spoken.

BardStephenFox> Especially high levels, I need to make sure I know what the adversary can do.

Mugzug> Encounters: I have a lot of monster manuals (mm, mm2, fiend folio, tome of horrors etc..) there are CR tables in the DMG and in the back of these books that can be easily used

heimdall> Sledge: There's no such thing as a random encounter in my campaign, much like Tsunami said.

* Nichar tries to generate a list of encounters before any given session

Mugzug> Worst case, there is the random encounter tablle in the DMG that has rolls for everything including furniture and enciroment.

NiTessine> So, the fighter who owns it is picking his teeth with it. The party wizard looks at him, and speaks the command word to turn it into a greatsword.

Sledge> right now I'm finding I don't always want to spend my time making up 10 or 12 CR 30 something encounters...

heimdall> NiTessine: that's evil. I like it!

kilroy> I pre-gen 5 or 6 different encounters and use the ones that fit best for the given setting.

BardStephenFox> Sometimes I will plop an encounter out if everyone is getting bored of no actions.

Nichar> NiTessine: Ouch

Sledge> stuff in the room is easy...

Warmaster_Horus> back back

NiTessine> That's my group. I'd like it, too, if they occasionally played something else.

Warmaster_Horus> What's teh topic now?

Warmaster_Horus> the

Tsunami> Intelligent and magic items, Horus

Warmaster_Horus> ah ok

Warmaster_Horus> No more than at most 2 magic items per my groups

Tsunami> Have you ever used any intelligent items?

Tsunami> Speaking of, does anyone have a problem of "items defining characters?"

Kaodi> I think that semi-cursed items done right could greatly enhance a campaign.

NiTessine> Hmm... I might, of course, do the PC-intelligent item by having the item surface in a different campaign, with a different group.

BardStephenFox> I'm going to split. Nice chatting with you all. Hope I said something interesting. :)

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: I do!

Tsunami> In my campaign, items defining characters was not really a problem

Warmaster_Horus> I hate that!

Tsunami> See you, Bard!

NiTessine> Bye, Fox.

Nichar> BardStephenFox: Later

Tsunami> Thanks for coming!

Warmaster_Horus> bye BardStephenFox

Mugzug> Here and there. I use a random treasure generator program that occasionally shoots one out. Then I detail its history.

heimdall> Tsu: Yup.

Tsunami> The items and the characters were one and the same, pretty much

Tsunami> The druid had the Cape of the Montebank which added to his character

Warmaster_Horus> I sually give characters abilities instead

Warmaster_Horus> I'm sorry I am not a bye-the book DM at all :(

Tsunami> The duelist had his magic swords that added to his fighting prowress, and therefore his character

Tsunami> That's perfectly fine, Horus!

Kaodi> Tsunami> Items defining characters is kind of a loose term though, you could take that one of two ways.

Tsunami> We need a good mix of DM's to instigate an interesting discussion

Tsunami> Kaodi- good point

Velvet> don't your players get upset if someone get something great and they only get something blah?

* Nichar created an intelligent longsword once...

* IIsi50MHz jams while soaking up the conversation

Nichar> never got to use it

heimdall> I tend to select my items based on the development of my characters

Tsunami> I suppose in my campaigns items sort of define characters, but it's more of a good thign than a bad thing

Tsunami> Velvet- that's never actually happened in my campaign

Mugzug> I see my campaigns tend to define what sort of items my PC's will want...

Mugzug> Like when I throw demons, they use holy items...

Warmaster_Horus> Velvet: My usuals and payers that I am exposing to my style, usually have huge gaps in powr between each other... But I try to make it fun for all of them and no complaints so far :P

Mugzug> If I use fire resistant creatures, they start getting Wands that do cold spells, etc.

Warmaster_Horus> players

Velvet> ah

kilroy> I try to avoid the PCs turning into nothing but steeds for the gear

kilroy> I prefer lots of minor items, functional but nothing that stands out.

heimdall> kilroy, that's my preference, too.

Tsunami> In a story I read recently, a fighter battled with a huge ogre who used his own disembodied head as the head of his mace

Tsunami> He had a good line

Kaodi> Would you consider it OK for items to define the character that created them?

Tsunami> "At least I know who is the master and who is the weapon!"

Tsunami> I'd say so, Kaodi

Warmaster_Horus> I would consider it OK for the creators to define the weapon :P

heimdall> i try to focus on the story, so the magic items have to fit. I don't use the random tables in the DMG. Same thing is true of the encounters I build. They need to fit myplot.

kilroy> I'm with Horus

Neko_Ali> night all

Warmaster_Horus> Kinda like having a little bit of his/her essence bleed into the item

Warmaster_Horus> bye neko

Tsunami> Goodnight, Neko!

Tsunami> Thanks for coming!

Harlock> seeya Ali

Tsunami> The paladin in my campaign actually forged his own armor

Warmaster_Horus> and making items that are not in concordance with the ones from DMG

Tsunami> Quite cool

heimdall> i would like to see my players get to that point, tsunami.

Warmaster_Horus> Like the sword one of my wizard players created for the fighter character

Tsunami> That's neat

kilroy> One of the clerics in my game is making a puzzle crypt. It will raise dead but requires massive effort to assemble.

Warmaster_Horus> He basicly "enchanted" it as he died, and thereafter that sword really started to hurt creatures of Chaos

Tsunami> Heh, cool

Tsunami> I love it when players come up with cool stuff like that

Kaodi> That would be interesting, creating an item that has your life essense as the final component, hehehe...

Warmaster_Horus> Kinda acted like a "holocron too

Warmaster_Horus> "holocon"

Tsunami> holocon?

kilroy> Ever played Earthdawn? That kind of thing happened with items getting powers from their past weilders.

Warmaster_Horus> He was wounded in battle and dying so he just did that so that "he would be more powerful than the BBEG could even possibly imagine"

Tsunami> Ha ha ha

IIsi50MHz> lol, wtg

heimdall> horus, that's pretty awesome.

Kaodi> It would also make a great alternative in campaigns that don't feature raising the dead... The wizard doesn't want to bite the biscuit, so he crafts a staff that will absorb his intelligence when he dies as long as he is within a reasonable range from it.

Tsunami> Hm...

Tsunami> That would be interesting

Tsunami> Well, any other DM-related issues anyone would like to bring up?

Velvet> question? what about if your players are tired of their characters and want new ones, what about moving over XP to new character..

* Velvet does

IIsi50MHz> Tsunami, yeah: why do I suck? (^:

Tsunami> Well, there's this diaphram connected to your lungs

heimdall> I let new characters come in at 90% of the party average in XP

IIsi50MHz> Ha. Figures

Nichar> hi thatdarncat

Tsunami> Velvet- that's interesting

Tsunami> If all the players were tired of their characters, I might allow that

kilroy> I do somethign similar with a few thousand Xp behind.

Warmaster_Horus> Another time the PCs killed te BBEG in one adventure... A really big BBEG and while they were gong through his "domain" in a latter adveture, they came upon a box that when opened displayed a "message" for the player(mainly the one PC that the BBEG thought was his nemesis) from the long-dead BBEG... Teling them that even though he always hated and fought with him, he also respected him... He also told him that should he be the one that survived their encounter, he was to use the "item" that he was leaving behind to face the u

RangerWickett-away> What happens when the PCs level up beyond their villains?

kilroy> Why aren't the villians leveling as they fight the PCs?

IIsi50MHz> "behind to face the upcoming..." -clipped

Kaodi> If I were DMimg a campaign, I think I would be more inclined perhaps to put characters at something like the lowest characters XP - 100*level

Warmaster_Horus> darkness

Kaodi> Villains don;t have to be the same level as PCs...

Tsunami> That's devious, Horus

Tsunami> :)

Kaodi> They can be way lower, or way higher, depending on their inclinations.

Warmaster_Horus> I always cheat at that... the BBEG is always higher

DoctorOtaku> 'lo!

Tsunami> Same here, Horus

Tsunami> :)

IIsi50MHz> allo doc

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: It was true though... He was leaving them the weapon that he intended to fight the darkness with

Warmaster_Horus> Hello Doc

kilroy> Some of mine are lower, but they use sneakier tactics.

Psycho> full house tonight

Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: But he also considered that he might be defeated so he left it as a contingency

Tsunami> That's interesting

heimdall> if I have BBEG who's lower, there's more than 1. Almost a TPK with 3 bugbears with a CR of 5 with the party of 6 6 levels.

Kaodi> I suppose though if your BBEG is considerably lower level than the party, then his bodyguard should be a fair bit higher, hehehe...

Warmaster_Horus> Hello Psycho

heimdall> the tactics of the 3 almost ended the party's existence.

Warmaster_Horus> Hello Bruce

Sutekh> ssh Otaku

Sutekh> listening :)

Campbell> Greetings Warmaster.

Psycho> Blackguard + 4 vampspawn nearly finished 8 7th lvl charcaters

IIsi50MHz> Contingency Spell: Give powerful cursed item to own nemesis "out of respected." Be sure to enchant to emit manaical laughter at inopportune moments.

Warmaster_Horus> It wasn't cursed :)

IIsi50MHz> Curse it relative.

Warmaster_Horus> He genuinely gave them the weapon to fight the darkness... making them his champions

IIsi50MHz> see? curse!

Tsunami> Heh heh heh

IIsi50MHz> (-;

Kaodi> Now, that would be evil... give the BBEG an alignment changing item, hehehe...

Warmaster_Horus> When they later learned that he wasn't such bad guy himself, but a desperate one, they were more somber

heimdall> i would award a goodly amount of XP to the party for that, Kaodi.

Psycho> We tried dropping a Halm of Reverse Alighnment on the BbEG once

Warmaster_Horus> interesting point... I love it when the party convinces the bad guy to pull a Vader

NiTessine> Hello, Mark.

Warmaster_Horus> Hello Mark

CMG_Mark> Evening all :)

IIsi50MHz> Allo Mark

Tsunami> Welcome to the Workshop, Mark!

Sutekh> did Ryand come back?

Tsunami> I'm not sure- he could have been in disguise

Tsunami> But I don't think so

NiTessine> Hello, Watchman.

Night_Watchman> hi

Warmaster_Horus> oh no! my nemesis is on TV!

Kaodi> I don't necessarily mean change his alignment completely, but changing your LE bad guy to LN, or your CE bad guy to NE could produce some subtle and interesting effects.

Sledge> someone mentioned a random treasure generator....

Sledge> any chance it does epicish?

CMG_Mark> How was the crowd tonight?

Tsunami> Anyways, an hour and a half ain't bad. I'm going to call this as the official "END OF WORKSHOP!"

Tsunami> Thanks to all participators!
 


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