DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies

Decided to give more information:
The PCs were travelling on the road, through open field.

The Hell Hounds approached slowly, charging 80 feet when they got their chance (the distance plus their +13 Hide bonus made for an average of Spot DC 31).

After the surprise round, their initiative bonus of +5 made it fairly easy to go first in the round, able to Run away at a speed of 400ft (thanks to their Run feat) avoiding AoOs because the victims are flat-footed.

Wounded Hellhounds (if they survive) stay to lose a breath weapon until their number is reduced to 8. They don't attack again until the PCs return to their walking.
 

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Land Outcast said:
Decided to give more information:
The PCs were travelling on the road, through open field.

Did the field provide cover or concealment?

The Hell Hounds approached slowly, charging 80 feet when they got their chance (the distance plus their +13 Hide bonus made for an average of Spot DC 31).

Did you apply the -20 penalty to Hide while moving? Incidently, I think the current rules on DC modifiers to spot and listen checks do to range are broken, but that's another story.

After the surprise round, their initiative bonus of +5 made it fairly easy to go first in the round, able to Run away at a speed of 400ft (thanks to their Run feat) avoiding AoOs because the victims are flat-footed.

Did you roll initiative for the monsters as a group, or individually? Almost all of my players take Improved Initiative and/or combat reflexes. If they didn't, they deserve to get picked on by quick monsters.

Hellhounds are an excellent example of a monster that can be gamed to be effective against characters of almost any level, because of the have several things going for them that they are likely to be better at than even high level characters - mobility, for example. I'm not sure that I agree with the specifics, but I certainly agree with the general approach.
 
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Did the field provide cover or concealment?
Yep, "open field" was an overstatement, they were travelling through a grassland.

Did you apply the -20 penalty to Hide while moving? Incidently, I think the current rules on DC modifiers to spot and listen checks do to range are broken, but that's another story.
Not really, the Hellhounds charged (now I realize they could have only made a partial charge, from 40ft afar) in their surprise action.

Did you roll initiative for the monsters as a group, or individually? Almost all of my players take Improved Initiative and/or combat reflexes. If they didn't, they deserve to get picked on by quick monsters.
Monsters as a group, I always do so (except when there's more than one group or there are individual monsters, in that situation I roll for each monster group or individual).

Improved Initiative is usually only taken by the Rogue-Type. Of the others, I could only see the Fighter "wasting" one of his feats in I.I. (when I'm a player it's a different story, I hate getting low Initiative), not that anyone has played a Fighter ever (in 5 years of gaming... wow, just realized that).

Combat reflexes is only useful if you do have a Dexterity bonus (Cleric-Type is almost always Dex +0 or worse, Fighter-Type usually is Dex +0 or +1, and the Wizard-Type doesn't find the feat worth the investment). The Rogue-Type could certainly have it.
 

Land Outcast said:
Yep, "open field" was an overstatement, they were travelling through a grassland.

That helps. The problem I have with that though is I'm not convinced that if the heroes were travelling through that same grassland you'd have applied a 20% miss chance to attacks made against them.

Not really, the Hellhounds charged (now I realize they could have only made a partial charge, from 40ft afar) in their surprise action.

They still had to sneak up on the party to get close enough to do that. Worse yet, I'm willing to bet that you rolled a single hide check for each monster. That greatly benefits the monsters. My guess is that with the -20 modifier to hiding while moving, and the fact that you should have rolled 16 d20's and taken the lowest result, that the average DC to spot a pack of 16 hellhounds sneaking up to you from 80' away (which is as you point out also a rules oversight) a mere 3 DC. That's a long way from DC 31.

I don't mean to pick on you. I'm not saying you are a bad DM. I'm certainly guilty at times of doing the same sorts of thing. But what I am saying is that the way you handled the monsters is miles away from the way you would have handled the PC's trying to do the same thing. There is a good chance that unless you made notes ahead of time, the 'open field' would have been an open field without useful cover or concealment. You might have remembered about the partial action during a surprise round. You would have certainly applied the -20 penalty to hiding while moving. You would have certainly made every member of the party roll a separate hide check and separate initiative check. You didn't do any of this and you overlooked certain rules that would have aided the PCs. I don't think you did it deliberately. You weren't trying to cheat the PC's. But you did do it, and I think the reason that you did it is that you wanted to 'challenge tough PCs with weaker enemies' and you put yourself consciously or subconsciouly on the side of the monsters and ruled in thier favor in order to obtain the results you wanted.

And that's not the same as playing a monster cunningly. That's a DM 'trick' but its not one that I think any of us want to actually be guilty of. For one thing, you are creating an adversarial relationship with your players. For another, in being guilty of this you are just begging the PCs to start rules lawyering you, because sooner or latter one of them is going to figure out they are being screwed. And finally, if they ever do realize that you aren't being fair, some of them are likely going to assume you are not being fair deliberately and that you are a jerk - even if its just an honest mistake.

Monsters as a group, I always do so (except when there's more than one group or there are individual monsters, in that situation I roll for each monster group or individual).

I tend to do so as well, and I'm not criticizing that, I'm just pointing out that coincidently this is also the way most likely to keep the whole pack out of danger. You didn't do it to help the monsters out; you did it because it was your usual practice. But you wouldn't have handled the PC's in the same way.

Improved Initiative is usually only taken by the Rogue-Type. Of the others, I could only see the Fighter "wasting" one of his feats in I.I. (when I'm a player it's a different story, I hate getting low Initiative), not that anyone has played a Fighter ever (in 5 years of gaming... wow, just realized that).

IME, improved initiative is probably the most powerful and important feat in the game (core rules), because the intiative roll is the single most important roll in the whole combat and generally determines who is going to win the fight. If you win the initiative, you go twice to your opponents once. Your opponent may not last beyond that, and often doesn't, but if they do you'll still go three times to your opponents mere twice.

Combat reflexes is only useful if you do have a Dexterity bonus (Cleric-Type is almost always Dex +0 or worse, Fighter-Type usually is Dex +0 or +1, and the Wizard-Type doesn't find the feat worth the investment). The Rogue-Type could certainly have it.

Combat reflexes does however grant you an AoO even if you are flat footed, which can be huge. I haven't seen it taken solely for this reason, but if you have even a Dex +1 (and most fighters do) then its hugely important feat.
 

ruled in thier favor in order to obtain the results you wanted.

This is the one point on which I disagree, I didn't change my ususal ruling.

Say:
PCs sneaking through grassland upon 16 enemies on the road.

Hide Check? if all PCs have the same bonus I allow them to make one roll for the group. On the rare occasions in which this is true, they prefer to make individual rolls.

Spot Check? I'm not rolling 16 Spot checks, Same modifier? Only one roll.

Note: you can move at one-half your speed and hide at no penalty (PH 76)

When they are withing charge range the PCs charge and are automatically spotted.
They have a partial charge in the surprise round.

After the surprise round ends, initiative is rolled normally (Different modifiers individually, PCs individually if they prefer it so).


*please, note any discrepancies and move on so that this doesn't devolve into an argument*
[/thread derail]
 

Its fun to plague your players with seemingly weak monsters!

Ive used:

Shadows, enhanced 1 CR by giving them touch attacks instead of melee, a swarm took down a 14th lvl party. Also, they're incorporeal, so even the best BAB misses 50% of the time, especially when strength gets nickle and dimed away.

Carrion Crawlers, again enhanced (magically) with a simple +4 to the DC of their paralytic poison, plus placed them in challenging environment, water for concealment. Again, 14th lvl party is toast.

Also messed up a 7th lvl part in my Wilderness campaign with 1st lvl goblin rogues wolfpacking for Aid Another, Flanking, Sneak Attacks, and a little poison. They actually sneered when I told them "goblins". now they are afraid of them... :)
 

Land Outcast said:
This is the one point on which I disagree, I didn't change my ususal ruling.

Well, I didn't say you did. I suggested that you might want to consider changing your ruling in a situation where it strongly effected the outcome one way or the other. There is a reason that pack hunters generally are not stalkers.

Spot Check? I'm not rolling 16 Spot checks, Same modifier? Only one roll.

Whereas, in this situation I probably would, because 16 heads really are better than one.

Note: you can move at one-half your speed and hide at no penalty (PH 76)

Ok, point.

*please, note any discrepancies and move on so that this doesn't devolve into an argument*

I'm not really interested in either an argument or the particular details of the math. I think it fairly obvious that there is a strong pull to rule in your own favor especially if you get caught up in trying to show how cool your foes are, and by extension how cool you are.

Earlier in the thread I talked about how you could make kobolds truly challenging without 'cheating' in any way. You do it by only using the kobolds in ways where skill is not important. You are basically doing it wrong if you have to roll dice on thier behalf. Basically, you turn the kobolds into the triggers of traps. But, even though that is the 'right' way to do for the purposes of optimizing the difficulty presented by the kobolds, I'm not sure optimizing the difficulty presented by any foe should necessarily be an overriding goal.
 

If you know your front line fighters don't have Combat Reflexes (which many don't), then have one monster move up and provoke AoOs. Have him go total defence, or fight defensively. Or, if he's got a boat-load of hp, just suck it up and take the hits. Then have his buddy(ies) walk past the now AoO-less front line guys to attack the juicy second-line wizards, sorcerers, and other low hd party members.

Works great if something like 1 hobgoblin takes the AoO while his two goblin mooks edge by to poke at the wizard.

Works even better if the goblins are scouts (skirmish damage against wizards!)

It forces the party to react, rather than being pro-active.

Does the mage stay around and sling spells, even though he'll likely get hit (held actions to attack the casting mage for the win!), or does he book in hopes of saving his own d4 of points?

Does the fighter stay and deal with the bigger threat in front of him, (without the support of the casters), or does he turn and try and save the glass-jawed wizard, possibly taking an AoO himself from the monster he's turning his back on?

It also mixes up the party and monsters, often reducing the use of AoE spells for fear of friendly fire.

In some situations, it may even allow the front line monster the opportunity to flee, the party too focused on the quick, small guys in their midst to properly fireball those fleeing.
 


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