DM vs. PC's Question

[vikingmonkey]

Where is the line drawn between challenging your players and engaging in a pissing contest with them?

I have a PC who is making a fighter with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large Greatsword. If I send a, for example, troll with the Monkey Grip feat wielding some massive weapon, am i challenging him or am I just saying "Neener neener, look what I can do!"?

 

[Stalker0]

Its a question of timing. If the guy just made his character and within the first few sessions you throw this guy out, then yeah that's just going to enrage the player.

But after a long time of playing if you bring this guy in, then it can look like an interesting challenge for the player.

 

[kenobi65]

Personally, I enjoy seeing what rules tricks or cheese the players can come up with...and then using them against the PCs at some point.

And, I don't think anyone would accuse me of being a Rat Bastard DM.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I think Stalker's right. Good timing is paramount. I think it's also good to have challenging antitheses to your characters, but not let those abilities become cheese tactics.

So, don't force your monkey grip player into a situation against a masterful disarming foe without some alternative ways out. Sometimes you need to teach your players a lesson, but if he spends every fight fetching his sword, that's just not fun.

 

[Darklone]

Simple rule: Do something different for each battle. First, a raging barbarian. Then a spellcaster. A cleric. A druid summoner. A big bad ugly monster. A disarming duelist. A grappling monster. A horde of mooks. Archer ambush. Sneak attacking halfling cannibals (my all time favorite). Hopping popping demons (teleport). A sundering Blackguard. A polearm specialist. A sword&boarder. A TWF slashing machine.

And so on...

If you do this, the PC won't mind if you bring someone who's doing the same stunt as he does. BTW: I like to do that to present the endless D&D possibilities to newbie players.

 

[vikingmonkey]

In the same vein as what Stalker said, I'd imagine that the proper circumstances help too. Along the same scenario from my original post, if i allow the player to hear about said troll beforehand - perhaps he is some, oh, town bully or some such thing, then it puts the ball in the players court to seek out this "challenge" and face it - knowing, through rumors or something, exactly what he's getting into.

 

[Mark CMG]

Where is the line drawn between challenging your players and engaging in a pissing contest with them?

Except in the case of an egomanical DM who is simply no good at his job and out to get the players at all cost, it's drawn by the players, IME. They either trust that the DM is meaning to challenge them and not take it personally, or they do not.

 

[vikingmonkey]

I think Stalker's right. Good timing is paramount. I think it's also good to have challenging antitheses to your characters, but not let those abilities become cheese tactics.

So, don't force your monkey grip player into a situation against a masterful disarming foe without some alternative ways out. Sometimes you need to teach your players a lesson, but if he spends every fight fetching his sword, that's just not fun.

Good point, KingJay, I'll keep this in mind!

 

[shilsen]

Simple rule: Do something different for each battle. First, a raging barbarian. Then a spellcaster. A cleric. A druid summoner. A big bad ugly monster. A disarming duelist. A grappling monster. A horde of mooks. Archer ambush. Sneak attacking halfling cannibals (my all time favorite). Hopping popping demons (teleport). A sundering Blackguard. A polearm specialist. A sword&boarder. A TWF slashing machine.

That's the approach I like, since it keeps things interesting for me as a DM too. I run a game (see sig) which is primarily urban and where the NPCs are usually significantly lower level than the PCs, but even within that restriction it's possible to have a whole lot of variation.

But I have to ask...

Sneak attacking halfling cannibals (my all time favorite)

Do you mean halflings who eat other halflings? If they ate humans, dwarves, elves, etc. then it wouldn't be cannibalism - just gluttony

 

[delericho]

As I see it, the difference is in the DM's motivation. If you're thinking "this would be a fun and interesting challenge..." then (almost) anything's fine. If you're thinking "right, well, whatever you can do I can do better..." or "that'll teach 'em..." or similar, then (almost) nothing is.