DM : "Your fighter does too much damage. Drop the belt of strength."

[Hellcow]

A few thoughts...

Personally, I wouldn't allow a half-dragon revenant blade in my campaign. I'd have to see the full dragonspawn write-up to make a ruling there, but there are a few key points to consider.

• The Revenant Blade PrC has the following prerequisites: Elf, region of origin Valenar. The class is integrally tied to the history and culture of the Tairnadal. The class abilities are partially a reflection of the skills of the character, but in equal part based on the inspiration of the ancestral spirits - the ancient heroes of the Tairnadal that act through the character, giving him his power. In essence, the revenant blade is the paladin of the Tairnadal... a warrior chosen and empowered by the forces worshipped by Tairnadal society.
• A half-dragon is not a humanoid (elf). It's a dragon (augmented humanoid). As such, it doesn't meet the prereqs for the PrC. Even if the change occurs later, I personally would consider this analogous to a paladin falling from grace. The revenant blade is the epitome of the Tairnadal warrior. Not only did the ancient Tairnadal have no traffic with dragons, they have by and large battled them. In my opinion, once the character ceases being an elf, he is an unfit vessel for the ancestral spirits, and he will need to restore himself before he can draw on the power of the ancestors once more. Now, it's possible that the dragonspawn template doesn't change your creature type... but given the Tairnadal history with dragons, I still feel this is on shaky ground.
• Technically, a prereq is "Region of Origin Valenar". As a result, any DM running the game in a non-Eberron setting has clear grounds to reject it, because it is tied to the setting. If the DM chooses to ignore this, that's fine - but it's there. The PrC is supposed to be closely tied to the culture, and as I said, to essentially be the paladins of the Tairnadal; plucked out of context, it certainly loses some of its flavor. Furthermore, in Eberron, Valenar - and especially Valenar warriors - suffer an inherent limitation, as many people of the Five Nations will treat them with suspicion. A Valenar half-dragon would be feared and reviled by his own kind - just look at Erandis d'Vol. This is a character that would have a very challenging life in Eberron; the DM may choose to allow it, but should bear that in mind.

Any DM has the right to exclude or include whatever he wants - but to me, the RB is essentially a Valenar racial paragon, and once you change your race, you've become a flawed vessel.

As for the general question of "Is Keith responsible for the Revenant Blade?" - Yes, I am. I created the prestige class. However, all material within any WotC book goes through an extended period of review and development, and this is no exception: the abilities of the PrC have changed since my first draft. While I sympathize with those who dislike the final ability of the Revenant Blade, I'm still OK with it, myself. Yes, it does allow a min-maxer to do crazy melee damage, if he gets hasted and increases his strength and takes a level of frenzied berserker and so on and so on. On the other hand, not everyone min-maxes. For the person who just plays the straight elf ranger with a 14 Str, boosted to 18 by his buddy's bull's strength, it's useful, and it serves its intended purpose of making the RB the foremost wielder of the double scimitar... but it's not adding hundreds of points of damage.

At the end of the day, I'm not a min-maxer: I play to tell a story. It's the role of the WotC development team to finalize issues of balance, and as I said, they did change some of the mechanics of the revenant blade. In my opinion, if a DM feels the class is unbalanced for his game, he should either not allow anyone to take it, or change it. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. And if the DM is running it, he has the final word on what's legal.

Looking back, one thing I would definitely add to the Revenant Blade is a code of conduct. Again, the RB is supposed to be the vessel of a heroic ancestor. His code will vary according to the nature of his ancestor, and would need to be worked out on a case-by-case basis with DM and player. But if the character breaks away from the path of his ancestor, I'd strip him of Ancestral Guidance until he atones and restores his bond to his ancestor - and possibly the other features of the PrC as well.

 

[Grog]

Question,

The authoratative answer without a doubt is your D.M. is completely in error and being unreasonable. Your PC is legal both technically and within the spirit of the rules. Such a magic item is a given at such a high level and any experienced D.M. should know this. Your D.M.'s logic is flawed and his decision is capricious and will likely handicap your character excessively.

If you click on the number next to this post it will appear in its own Window. You can cut and paste the link and send it to your D.M. alternatively, you can print it out and send it to him/her.

This is the post you were hoping for - so there it is. Glad to be of service.

You win at the internet.

 

[Shayuri]

See, when you put it like that, it sounds COOL.

Thanks Keith. Sometimes a bit of perspective is needed. It probably is unfair to blame the "feat" or the "PrC" for how some people choose to try to use them. That is the GM's role, after all...to determine what's too much. To draw that line beyond which Thou Mayest Not Step.

 

[Satori]

Your DM is testing you.

I repeat...

YOUR DM IS TESTING YOU!!

I used to do this all the time with my players to essentially figure out "Where there head was at"

For instance, I had a dual-wielding PC that min-maxed the hell out of a 2nd Edition Fighter. He happened upon some incredible random swords and ended up killing much of the game with how easily he'd tear through the encounters.

So what did I do?

I cut off one of his hands.

During an epic battle with an "Evil Alter-Ego" type that mirrored his character, a critical hit with a Blade of Sharpness resulted in that PC losing a hand.

Surely this munchkin PC would grow red in the face, storm out of the room, and mess himself while wailing like a toddler...right?

Wrong.

He said, "Sweet! Pirates rock!" and proceeded to go on a quest to craft a magical hook after the bad guy was dispatched.

I never once even THOUGHT about limiting his characters after that...nor did I ever have an issue in rebalancing the game by my own methods.


---Now, listen to me very carefully.

THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY TO YOUR DM!!

DM: "Lose the belt"

You: "Of course! You know, is there anything else that I could change about my PC to make you more comfortable? I really don't mind, as I really just want to enjoy playing in your game."


Give it a shot. I can almost guarantee your problems will be solved. If you still have an issue...then maybe you shouldn't play in his games.

 

[kanithardm]

Sorry question, you give your sheet to a room full of DM's, someone is going to notice inconcistencies and debate them.

You should have realized this earlier.

But as a DM i would never stop a player from powergaming, but if you take out your inconsistincies, then you won't seem as powerful. Your DM may just let the issue slide.

As a player I powergame, I can get to a 35 modifier to my diplomacy in three levels. I plan out all 20 levels before the campaign even starts. I would find it very unfair if the DM took away something as average as a belt of strength. If he sad RAW only and you couldn't use some of those feats that i would understand. But I think hes just attacking the belt of strength because he doesn't think you'll miss something that trivial. If he where to take away that over-powered feat to lower your damage then you would be mad. But he didn't, so hes jsut trying to keep you happy while keeping you in check.

(But if you fix all those mistakes, you don't really need to be kept in check.)

 

[kanithardm]

Your DM is testing you.

I repeat...

YOUR DM IS TESTING YOU!!

I used to do this all the time with my players to essentially figure out "Where there head was at"

For instance, I had a dual-wielding PC that min-maxed the hell out of a 2nd Edition Fighter. He happened upon some incredible random swords and ended up killing much of the game with how easily he'd tear through the encounters.

So what did I do?

I cut off one of his hands.

During an epic battle with an "Evil Alter-Ego" type that mirrored his character, a critical hit with a Blade of Sharpness resulted in that PC losing a hand.

Surely this munchkin PC would grow red in the face, storm out of the room, and mess himself while wailing like a toddler...right?

Wrong.

He said, "Sweet! Pirates rock!" and proceeded to go on a quest to craft a magical hook after the bad guy was dispatched.

I never once even THOUGHT about limiting his characters after that...nor did I ever have an issue in rebalancing the game by my own methods.


---Now, listen to me very carefully.

THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY TO YOUR DM!!

DM: "Lose the belt"

You: "Of course! You know, is there anything else that I could change about my PC to make you more comfortable? I really don't mind, as I really just want to enjoy playing in your game."


Give it a shot. I can almost guarantee your problems will be solved. If you still have an issue...then maybe you shouldn't play in his games.

Your player used to be a DM. Only way he could be that agreeable. Or brainwashed by a DM. Or something, but there is no way any player would actuall in their right mind agree with their DM. But then again I've been ruined as a DM by my group. I go to DMA(Dms Anonymous). My group was scary.

 

[irdeggman]

Sigh everyone is fixating on the AC, the skills, or whatever, instead of the strength score and damage, which is the issue here.

GG for not reading first post.

Wasn't this correct?

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2857535&postcount=53

I'm sorry but I think you have missed the problem.

The problem as you stated was that your PC is doing too much damage.

You made the assumption that since the DM said to lose the belt that the magic item was the focus of the problem. You also stated that you saw the real problem revolving around the strength of the PC.

But what you did not say was did you tell your DM this observation of yours?

We are getting only a partial picture and the original question was essentially was it right of my DM to nix the belt just becasue my PC does a lot of damage.

I have no idea what parameters your DM gave you at the start but when I see the following it causes me to pause and question everything about the situation.

1. You have an Eberron only feat and prestige class.

2. You have a Dragonlance - only racial template (if it is located somewhere else I haven't found it, neither races of the dragon nor draconiam).

3. You are playing in a Greyhawk game.

From previous posts you have had about how unfair a DM has treated you, it came out that (at least at the time) you didn't feel it was your duty to tell the DM where you got your information and that it was soley up to the DM to check everything about your PC including sources and math and if he only gave it a cursory review and was relying on the players to keep him appraised of anything not in the core rules then it was the DM's fault and he had given you "approval" to do what you wanted.

IMO any game that is not a home brewed setting (that has "borrowed" things from various settings) and is using multiple setting material is askew and wil only lead to problems like the one you seem to be having presently.

I ahve found that individual settigns are usually balanced within themselves but imported things from other settings do not automatically make them balanced overall.

So before you insist that everyone responding to your post is missing the boat I think you instead need to look at the "real" problem and not the superficial one.

 

[Land Outcast]

irdeggman answered in my behalf

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

A few thoughts...

You know, I used to get ticked off at game designers not admitting their mistakes, but I never get angry at you. Must be your high Charisma score That and your willingness to admit mistakes (although perhaps not in this specific instance).

We know you're a flavor guru more than a rules guru, so it's all forgiven.

 

[merelycompetent]

Sigh everyone is fixating on the AC, the skills, or whatever, instead of the strength score and damage, which is the issue here.

GG for not reading first post.

If it bothers you that much, then leave the game. But make sure you do so with courtesy, dignity, and grace. I'm sure there are plenty of other games around where your playing/character-building style isn't an issue for the DM. You're playing to have fun, and if this additional requirement in combination with the DM not sitting down to "knock the kinks out" isn't fun for you, it's time to depart.

That is the only advice I have left, since the rest of what I would advise has already been adequately, and more expertly, given by others.

Good luck!