DMG II Excerpt - Monsters

[Pbartender]

Monster templates are a waste of space for 4e monster design. Who uses them?

I've used them on many occasions... In fact I've often wished there were more of them, than just what was listed in the DMG.

 

[Mistwell]

Monster templates are a waste of space for 4e monster design. Who uses them?

When done using the monster builder it will be a lot easier, and therefore I think they will get a lot more use.

Templates were rarely used I think because they were a hassle to calculate everything when you could just reskin something else. But when it's just a click to add it? A lot easier.

 

[malraux]

I kinda wish there were a few templates that didn't automatically elite/solo-ify monsters.

 

[Primal]

I don't know... I use a lot of templates in 3E/PF, and the lack of instructions in monster design was one of the "flaws" I perceived in 4E. For example, how many powers should a 12th level skirmisher have? How about a 7th level brute? Which number or trigger should each of the powers "refresh" with? Would 4 be too low for an 11th level brute? Could the same attack knock a target prone and poison and restrain? At which level should something like this be possible -- could I give it to a 5th level monster? Could it even be at-will? And so on.

I didn't like the semi-official reply to "goggle it up in MM and do some comparisons", especially as more-or-less "perfect" balance has been a major design goal for 4E; why, then, the advice for "free form" monster building? Especially as it is pretty evident to me that they have some sort of "point buy"/math system both for PC and monster powers.

Here's an idea: why not include that formula in monster builder? That way it would be a breeze to build, say, a 9th level monster and it would be perfectly balanced.

Anyway, I think this sort of articles are exactly what DMs who struggle with the 4E "mindset" would be looking for.

 

[Rechan]

I don't know... I use a lot of templates in 3E/PF, and the lack of instructions in monster design was one of the "flaws" I perceived in 4E. For example, how many powers should a 12th level skirmisher have? How about a 7th level brute? Which number or trigger should each of the powers "refresh" with? Would 4 be too low for an 11th level brute?

Ultimately, from what I can tell of 4e, the number of powers a monster has provides no impact on its balance. The monster only lives X rounds. If it has X+3 powers, all of which are standard actions, it doesn't matter that it has X+3 powers; it'll only last long enough to get X powers off.

The real impact is how the powers interact, and the number of powers a monster has which require NO action. For instance, Threatening Reach. Threatening Reach is pretty potent. Only a few monster shave Threatening Reach. And very few monsters have more than 1 or 2 "Always On" powers like threatening reach.

Also, many, many powers are very subjective. How powerful is Icewalk? How do you quantify that? How about Phasing?

If you look at the various MMs, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of formula as far as giving monsters powers. There is no typical number. You can have 18th level brutes that have 3 powers.

So I doubt you'll ever see something like that because it doesn't exist. There is no science to what's balanced in terms of number of powers, the recharge on powers, etc.

 

[Rechan]

I've made good use of a few templates, for what it's worth.

 

[Vael]

I quite enjoy templates. They add a bit of punch to a monster, and it's an easy way to turn some of the more interesting standards into threatening elites.

 

[Shroomy]

Especially as it is pretty evident to me that they have some sort of "point buy"/math system both for PC and monster powers.

There isn't any type of point buy/math system for monster powers other than "to-hit" and appropriate damage formulas (and even these aren't really set in stone). It really is a series of guidelines.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm a fan of the templates, especially the class templates, for making bad guys that have PC-class powers (humanoid bad guys!), or for critters I want to fill a specific role (the Bodyguard template, for instance, has seen some use).

But I'm also a fan of Rituals, so perhaps I'm just a fan of things in 4e that no one actually uses.

 

[Primal]

Ultimately, from what I can tell of 4e, the number of powers a monster has provides no impact on its balance. The monster only lives X rounds. If it has X+3 powers, all of which are standard actions, it doesn't matter that it has X+3 powers; it'll only last long enough to get X powers off.

Actually, I think it does; if the powers offer different tactical advantages (one dazes, another slides someone 3 squares, and a third grants combat advantage) the monster with more powers can use different strategies. If it also has some of those regenerative powers (that are often mentioned leading to "grinding"), it might get to unload all it has on the PCs.

For example, compare the "flying undead armor" (I can't recall the actual name) from FRCG with monsters from other sources; I'm fairly sure it performs tactically worse (if I remember correctly it only had one or two attack powers) than most monsters half its level.

The real impact is how the powers interact, and the number of powers a monster has which require NO action. For instance, Threatening Reach. Threatening Reach is pretty potent. Only a few monster shave Threatening Reach. And very few monsters have more than 1 or 2 "Always On" powers like threatening reach.

That, too; I agree that the synergy is also an important factor.

Also, many, many powers are very subjective. How powerful is Icewalk? How do you quantify that? How about Phasing?

If you look at the various MMs, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of formula as far as giving monsters powers. There is no typical number. You can have 18th level brutes that have 3 powers.

So I doubt you'll ever see something like that because it doesn't exist. There is no science to what's balanced in terms of number of powers, the recharge on powers, etc.

If there isn't, I kind of wonder *why* there wouldn't be; I mean, someone posted on EnWorld the formula behind the powers (though I can't recall how accurate it was), and I thought absolute (or near absolute) balance was one of the design. If it doesn't exist, it would be easy to make (just some basic math, not some weird scientic formula), I think, by assigning certain suggested minimum levels and point costs to powers (monster utility powers, such as Icewalk, could have a lower point cost).