DMG II -- In my hands . . .

[Silveras]

That is obviously not RAW. Feats are not spells. Hell, I don't even like the negative level rule in the first place - it seems odd that a charm person spell can degrade the power of a crowd, but 3 fireballs can't.

Quite true; an attack is not an effect in the RAW. That's what I get for writing off-the-cuff.

Whirlwind Attack would be like Cleave and Great Cleave; its utility negated by the nature of the struggling mass of creatures.

 

[Driddle]

Was that a joke?

Was that?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Superior Flanking (if two party members flank an enemy, then everyone is considered flanking)

Urk... I hope they've worded that one carefully!

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Urk... I hope they've worded that one carefully!

-Hyp.

Bwahahahah!

 

[The Souljourner]

I think it worth noting that these are not just large groups of creatures. They are large groups of creatures incited to rage and unreasoning violence.

QFT

You can't take your 48 person bridge club and just decide to become a mob. The DM decides that the 48 people watching the evil deputy whipping a young boy become a mob and lynch him and then go on to lynch the corrupt sheriff and destroy the town jail.

As for stuff like whirlwind attack working or not, I don't have the rules, so I don't know. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for it not to work. Ever seen a true-on riot? One guy with a sword just isn't going to dent the huge mass of bodies pressing down on him. So you take down three or four guys... a dozen more step in behind your blade and trample over you.

-The Souljourner

 

[Li Shenron]

Urk... I hope they've worded that one carefully!

-Hyp.

IMO with this benefit, it's enough that 2 teammates are flanking an enemy, and everyone else making a melee attack against the same enemy gets the +2 bonus and may sneak attack.

For instance if "x" is a teammate and "o" the enemy, in this position:

xox
x

even the teammate below will probably have the flank bonus.

That's my guess.

 

[Felon]

And how exactly are the fists and feet of 30 peasants kicking a demon from all around going to do less damage than a single longsword? The demon SHOULD be taking damage unless you're stuck in a mindset of "each of those punches are a single attack!"

You mean the "mindset" of being right? One peasant punch is one peasant punch. Thirty peasant punches should wash over the demon like so many raindrops. A hezrou or balor shouldn't be scratched. A pit fiend should be able to walk boldy into a mob of humans.

Oh, I see the value of a mob template, I just think this goes too far in the other direction. Creating a bunch of mobs to represent an army of 1,000s or even 100 of units is reasonable to me. A "mob" of twelve ogres isn't.

Right, I think mobs are a great way to represent large groups of foes that wouldn't otherwise be feasible (why weren't these rules in Heroes of Battle???). But this business where mobs hit automatically hit for a truckload of damage, and are basically unmeleeable is definitely on the lame side of things.

I'm still waiting on my DMG II, but I'll likely house-rule that the mob makes a random number of attack rolls against anyone it engulfs.

Regarding Mobs...
First...
I think it worth noting that these are not just large groups of creatures. They are large groups of creatures incited to rage and unreasoning violence. In short, they are not just ready to fight; they are desperate to get somewhere to do something, be that to get "anywhere but here" to "survive" or to get "across the courtyard" to "hang the child-killing thief before he gets away".

OK, that would answer the question I asked a page or two ago, but just to be clear, are you actually paraphrasing the rules in the DMG II, or are you just making your own determination on what constitutes a mob?

Regarding Mobs...
It makes perfect sense to me that a pushing and shoving crowd of enraged people would not stand still long enough for a warrior to get his Cleave or Great Cleave attacks.

Right, because D&D is about combat that makes sense, particularly in regards to one person taking on groups of less-experienced foes, right? Few creatures "stand still" to get cleaved. The Cleave and Great Cleave feats are specifically designed to make a warrior effective against multiple opponents. What "makes sense" is for those feats to be especially useful against a mob.

As for stuff like whirlwind attack working or not, I don't have the rules, so I don't know. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for it not to work. Ever seen a true-on riot? One guy with a sword just isn't going to dent the huge mass of bodies pressing down on him. So you take down three or four guys... a dozen more step in behind your blade and trample over you.

D&D is not a reality simulation. One guy with a sword is generally not that effective against anything in the real world. Two relatively unskilled people can gang up and kill an experienced figher. Or for that matter, one unskilled guy with a crossbow can kill the experienced swordsman. And taking a 10-ton firebreathing dragon? Forget it little meat puppet!

So, clearly, reality is a pretty lousy position to argue from. In D&D, a high-level barbarian is a tornado of destruction, a real force to be reckoned with. A badass mookslayer.

 

[ecliptic]

I can't wait to use the mob template.

 

[cmanos]

if you notice, nothing from the non-core books is in the SRD. Also, some things from the core books that are pretty vital to playing the game are also missing from the SRD.

Took a quick look at the DMGII and there didn't seem to be anything 100% needed to play in it. Lots of good stuff, mind you, just nothing critical to run a game.

 

[Simplicity]

You mean the "mindset" of being right? One peasant punch is one peasant punch. Thirty peasant punches should wash over the demon like so many raindrops. A hezrou or balor shouldn't be scratched. A pit fiend should be able to walk boldy into a mob of humans.

Really? 'Cuz I saw this happen to a demon the other day, and he didn't come out of it well.
If we're not talking about reality, but rather about how the RULES should be, then I'm afraid that the DMG2 and WotC say that *I* am the one in the "right" mindset, not you.

In a mob attack, the sum is more than the parts. That's what the mob rule says. That's how it "should" be. Thirty peasants would individually bounce off a line of shielded riot police. A mob of peasants, however, might actually break through and trample the crap out of them.