DMG II -- In my hands . . .

Er, yeah. It's like the mob rules are on trial here. They are a tool, a way to represent a common situation. As a simplification, they may not cover some corner cases too well. Yeah, if you are running a party of pit fiends, the rules might not turn out like the other rules suggest they should. ;) But this situation isn't exactly normal, and I think the standard assumption is that the RAW are design to principally to challenge typical PCs, not to evaluate the effects that various threats to PCs have on each other (DDG aside :] ).

So if we can walk away from this thread knowing where the mob rules handle things well and where they don't, we'll be better armed to use them without surprises.
 

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Simplicity said:
Sure. By training for 2 weeks, a team can learn to coordinate their efforts more effectively. You can get one teamwork benefit for every 4HD of the minimum HD person on the team. The team leader needs to meet certain prereqs, and everyone must meet other prereqs.

The benefits range from:
Having a routine for inspecting doors for traps
Sneaking as a group (sneak at normal speed without penalty)
Spell barrages (penalties against victims of multiple Reflex save spells on the same round)
Combat Medicine(?) (If two people try to perform a Heal check on a person in the same round, the second automatically succeeds.)
Superior Flanking (if two party members flank an enemy, then everyone is considered flanking)
And many more...

Kind of cool, and gives a purpose to training other than just leveling up. Though some I think are probably too powerful (e.g. give party members Evasion versus friendly AoE spells).

(not to divert from the mob on the mob...)

I have mixed feelings about this...it confirms a pattern of "player option creep" which is starting to bug me (other recent examples include replacement levels and legacy weapons). You would think races, classes, skills, feats, spells, prestige classes and (standard mundane and magical) items would be enough.

On the other hand, the way it works sounds interesting, and I like the the idea of a benefit for the party vs. an individual, but still, it is yet another player mechanic to deal with.
 

TerraDave said:
(not to divert from the mob on the mob...)

I have mixed feelings about this...it confirms a pattern of "player option creep" which is starting to bug me (other recent examples include replacement levels and legacy weapons). You would think races, classes, skills, feats, spells, prestige classes and (standard mundane and magical) items would be enough.

On the other hand, the way it works sounds interesting, and I like the the idea of a benefit for the party vs. an individual, but still, it is yet another player mechanic to deal with.

I like player options...the more the merrier. As for the existing options being enough, maybe a limit on such is finally being approached? There can only be so many PrC's and feats before things get REALLY redundant, so bring on the new spins!
 

Vargo said:
Going WAAAAAY off topic here, this would actually be a better example of superior tactics. If I remember the scene in question, Sanjuro never actually fought more than 2-3 warriors at the same time.

Well, somewhat. For the first minute or so, two or three would come rushing at him while the others stood in the background gobsmacked. By the time they were attacking in concert, most of them were already dead. Finally, several broke for the door, and he basically took attacks of opportunity on them while they did so. Getting the door open just made things worse for them, tho, because he shoved it in their faces, pinning them against the wall, at which point he was basically shooting fish in a barrel.

-The Gneech, always willing to go off-topic when Toshiro Mifune is involved :cool:
 

I'm starting to feel bad about this. I know that discussing the mob template is technically on topic, but it feels like hijacking to focus on such a small percentage of the book. Still, I suppose it makes sense until more people buy it, since we at least have some basic understanding of this concept due to the Dungeon article and input from earlier in the thread.

Anyway, I agree on DR completely stopping a mob's attacks provided it is 5 or higher. It's not so much a matter of a mob getting past a riot shield. I think a better analogy would be trying to stop a Sherman tank by punching it. I don't care how pick a mob that is, it's not going to get through armor that thick with fists. I'd say it's the same with DR monsters. A golem's armor is so thick it turns away blows from everything but objects made out of the hardest substance on the planet or the equivalent. A demon is so coursing with dark nature that only a weapon filled with holy power could counter the creature's evil taint and do true physical damage to the being of pure unholy power. I don't see how significantly upping the quantity of mundane attacks over the course of a few seconds would counter armor of this nature. I agree that this applies to swarms too, though I thought it already did. It would explain why that Crown of Vermin spell in the Epic Level Handbook gives the vermin DR 1/epic.

Oh, I thought of one more fairly important modification to the mob; a consideration for environmental and constant effects. As far as I know, such a consideration doesn't currently exist, so if the mob, for example, fell off a cliff and lands a half-mile later, it takes the 20d6 damage and then moves on with no casualties! The same is true if the entire mob is forced through a wall of fire or blade barrier, or is completely immersed in a pool of lava or acid, or gets caught in a tornado, and so on. This strikes me as amusingly ironic, since the most common complaints for realism after "a barbarian can singlehandedly kill 7,000 soldiers" which this template partially corrects, are the "a barbarian can fall ten miles and survive" and "a barbarian can take a few rounds skinny-dipping in lava and survive" issues. And this templates says that not only can a mob of 1st level commoners survive these same conditions, it can theoretically do it without any casualties!

Using my template modifiers above, I would say if a mob encounters an environmental or consistent source of damage that would do enough base damage to give the mob at least a negative level (like the 15-30 range i mentioned earlier,) and the entire mob can't escape it, it would destroy the mob instantly. However, if there's a way for the mob to partially move around it, it would be treated as an area effect with the 50% damage increase. In other words, if the mob was forced into a tunnel filled completely with lava or blocked by a blade barrier, or fell off a cliff and into an acid pool, it would be destroyed. However, if they move past a blade barrier or over a river of lava and there's room to climb over the barrier or above the lava's surface, it would only be seriously damaged. In terms of imagery, I see it as the first wave of rioters dying instantly, but the later ranks would use the burning or chopped-up bodies as a temporarily bridge or hill and climb over it to get to safety, albeit with very heavy casualties.
 


DungeonmasterCal said:
I like player options...the more the merrier. As for the existing options being enough, maybe a limit on such is finally being approached? There can only be so many PrC's and feats before things get REALLY redundant, so bring on the new spins!

But do we really want 10 or 11 ways to customise a charecter--and with stuff WotC has released we are close--with each way having many, many options within it?
 

Felon said:
Clearly, if dragons and arch-demons and adamantine golems can be slapped around by peasants, there's something not quite right with those rules. By design, 3.5e monsters aren't allowed to have more than 15 points of DR (except perhaps in some very rare and extreme cases), so mobs can consistently hurt monsters to a degree many a hero can't. You don't need heroes to go on quests, you just need a bunch of pissed-off peasants.

Just a note on dragons, specifically.

Mobs require a high level of emotion behind them. They have to be revved up to form a mob. Dragons have dragon fear. For a group of humans to mob against a dragon, one of two things would have to happen. Either they would have had to have been revved before seeing the dragon, or enough commoners would have to have made their will saves vs. fear and still be pissed enough to form a mob. Both are bloody unlikely.

Now, if a pit fiend happened to be in the way of the peasants as they were fleeing from the dragon, I might let the mob template stand. But the goal of the mob is to get outta Dodge, so they'll only have attacks so long as they are moving through the area the pit fiend is in. Probably not a huge issue, just a couple of hp and some inconvenience.

A stampede of cattle will be similar. Many flattened 1st level commoners, but the 15th level ranger knows enough to stand still and look like a tree, so he just gets a few bruises.

The mob template is a tool, and it sounds like it would work well for the right jobs. If you use an electric sander to wax your car, though, you're going to be unhappy.
 


TerraDave said:
I have mixed feelings about this...it confirms a pattern of "player option creep" which is starting to bug me (other recent examples include replacement levels and legacy weapons). You would think races, classes, skills, feats, spells, prestige classes and (standard mundane and magical) items would be enough.

On the other hand, the way it works sounds interesting, and I like the the idea of a benefit for the party vs. an individual, but still, it is yet another player mechanic to deal with.

If this annoys you, the companion spirit is REALLY gonna get you P.O.'ed.
By joining with a "companion spirit" a party gets a number of bonuses. Sure, they lose some XP by doing it, but those bonuses are pretty sweet... Munchkin-crunch cereal.
 

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