DMG2 updated monster creation rules

Jhaelen

First Post
Well, now that I've read the DMG2 update regarding monster creation, I'm a bit underwhelmed. I also have a feeling this was added very late in the development process of the book.

First, it's only one page and second the encounters / monster stat blocks that can be found throughout the book don't seem to conform to the new rules.

E.g., in the section on applying templates we're told to multiply Elite monster hp of level 11+ by 2.5.

None of the example encounters seem to take into account that in the paragon tier 5 minions are now supposed to be equivalent to a single standard monster. I'm not only unsure if this change actually helps all that much, I'm also wondering if that doesn't mean you'd have to recalculate minion xp?

I liked the monster themes but isn't it odd, adding those new powers doesn't change their xp value at all? A template often doesn't add much more but doubles the xp value.

And what's there to offset the fact that neither Elite nor Solo monsters get a defense bonus any more? Shouldn't they get something else instead, like increased damage or attack bonuses?

The default solution that Solos enter a 'blood rage' when bloodied and get an additional attack with a higher attack bonus seems pretty lame to me. I doubt this is going to make much of a difference considering the problems that Solo fights seem to have.

Am I the only one who really expected more from this section?
 

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Actually, I would be surprised if any WotC adventure ever will conform to these updated guidelines...

I guess that even monsters that are off by a fair bit still work, so nobody's really interested in following a strict to-do list, when a quick cut'n'paste job does almost as good...

So yeah get the DMG2 if you couldn't figure out "make bloodied monsters do more damage" by yourself. (That is the actual advice, they only give a single concrete example, and then they admit their own example is lame. But then they don't give out any other examples. *shrug*)
 

I'm not only unsure if this change actually helps all that much, I'm also wondering if that doesn't mean you'd have to recalculate minion xp?

No. It just means that, if you want a paragon or epic fight that uses minions to "full" effectiveness, they'll just be worth a tad more XP.

I liked the monster themes but isn't it odd, adding those new powers doesn't change their xp value at all? A template often doesn't add much more but doubles the xp value.

Nope, themes don't, and shouldn't, add XP. They give the monsters more options, but they don't make them any more potent. Templates add XP because of the hit points and defensive bonuses, not just because of new powers.

And what's there to offset the fact that neither Elite nor Solo monsters get a defense bonus any more?

Nothing. The whole point behind those changes was that the folks at WotC realized that they'd made elites and solos too hard to hit. This change is correcting a previous miscalculation.
 

Howdy Mousferatu! :)

Mouseferatu said:
No. It just means that, if you want a paragon or epic fight that uses minions to "full" effectiveness, they'll just be worth a tad more XP.

Wouldn't they have been better saying something like "Replace one minion with two at Paragon Tier and one minion with three at Epic Tier"?

Nothing. The whole point behind those changes was that the folks at WotC realized that they'd made elites and solos too hard to hit. This change is correcting a previous miscalculation.

But haven't WotC themselves said that many monsters (especially Elites and Solos) were too tough defensively but not strong enough offensively; ostensibly leading to combat 'grind'...and didn't WotC move things in the right direction with Monster Manual 2 by lowering defenses and hit points (solos) while slightly upping damage. Also didn't they say (with regards Monster Manual 3) that they were going to be going a bit further in this direction?

It seems to me that the main problem is when monster damage is lower than what is suggested in the DMG1; especially with regards the limited recharge/encounter powers.

I don't understand this Elites x2.5 hp business. That seems like a step backwards.
 


Wouldn't they have been better saying something like "Replace one minion with two at Paragon Tier and one minion with three at Epic Tier"?

That would've been overpowered, I think.

But haven't WotC themselves said that many monsters (especially Elites and Solos) were too tough defensively but not strong enough offensively; ostensibly leading to combat 'grind'...and didn't WotC move things in the right direction with Monster Manual 2 by lowering defenses and hit points (solos) while slightly upping damage. Also didn't they say (with regards Monster Manual 3) that they were going to be going a bit further in this direction?

And thus they've dropped defenses on elites and solos, and set things up so that solos deal more damage (or are otherwise nastier) after they've been bloodied. Not sure I see the disconnect. :)

I don't understand this Elites x2.5 hp business. That seems like a step backwards.

My guess--since that comes from the section on transforming elites into solos via templates--is that it's a reference that got missed, from back when solos had x5 hp at higher levels.
 

Mouseferatu said:
That would've been overpowered, I think.

Possibly, but we also know that the challenge of minions is lessened at the higher tiers. Exactly how much lessened is indeed open for debate; its possible that increasing numbers by 50% (Paragon Tier) and 100% (Epic Tier) is a better overall fit.

And thus they've dropped defenses on elites and solos, and set things up so that solos deal more damage (or are otherwise nastier) after they've been bloodied. Not sure I see the disconnect. :)

I thought you were saying that by lowering defenses there needed to be no trade off to maintain the same EXP value. But WotC have been trying to increase offensive power, so in a sense there is a trade off. Weaker defense, stronger offense.

My guess--since that comes from the section on transforming elites into solos via templates--is that it's a reference that got missed, from back when solos had x5 hp at higher levels.

Ah, that seems a logical explanation, thanks.
 

Nope, themes don't, and shouldn't, add XP. They give the monsters more options, but they don't make them any more potent. Templates add XP because of the hit points and defensive bonuses, not just because of new powers.

I don't have DMG 2, but this doesn't seem correct. A monster that is being run competently will tend to use its more effective powers in any given situation. Having more options will thus increase its average effectiveness. However, this effect might not be that large if the theme powers are relatively weak and similar to existing powers to begin with, since they'll rarely be better than the existing options.

You could even have a "trap" situation, where adding a very weak power decreases a monster's effectiveness, because occasionally DMs use it when it won't be effective compared to other powers, and it's never really better than existing options. There are certainly plenty of PC powers that fall into this category.
 

I don't have DMG 2, but this doesn't seem correct. A monster that is being run competently will tend to use its more effective powers in any given situation.

True. But the powers are balanced in terms of general level with what else the creature has. A bump in effectiveness when played by a tactically brilliant DM in just the right circumstances might exist, but it won't be the equivalent of a level (especially without the accompanying HP and defense bumps).

There are shades and degrees of granularity even between monsters of the same level (as is the case in any and every game that uses level, CR, or similar mechanics to rate monster ability). Things like themes play in those gray areas.
 

Why is it expected that MM2 monsters conform to MM2 homebrew monster creation standards when MM1 monsters did not conform to MM1 homebrew monster creation standards?

Am I missing something here?
 

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