DMG2 updated monster creation rules

[Jhaelen]

Why is it expected that MM2 monsters conform to MM2 homebrew monster creation standards when MM1 monsters did not conform to MM1 homebrew monster creation standards?

Am I missing something here?

Apparently you do - since you're both the first and only one in this thread mentioning MM2 monsters

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Seemed logical to me that DS was considering MM2 and DMG2 monster construction the same, since it appears that, in a general sense a least, the DMG2 updates to monster creation are along the same lines as MM2 monsters.

True though, no individual monster generally follows the guidelines exactly in all respects. It hardly seems possible that they could since vast numbers of options are not even really covered by the guidelines or only barely touched on.

4e monster creation is all about flexibility from top to bottom. Its never going to fit into an exact set of rules or it would lose much of its inherent usefulness.

As for what I expected from the monster creation section update? I think it was pretty much what we got. I did note the 2.5x HP thing as an error and I too wondered what they meant about monster/minion equivalence. I agree with the previous post on the minion thing, I suspect they're just recommending you toss in a small number of extra minions in higher level encounters, so up the number by 20% at paragon and 50% at epic. I would have to presume this means without chaning the XP of the encounter, otherwise it would hardly bear mentioning.

The theme stuff seemed pretty good. I consider it reasonably obvious as a monster building concept, but the example themes should be a bit of labor savings. The new functional and class templates seem useful. The changes to elites and solos are needed though well known in practice.

Basically I think for the most part in general DMG2 was about what I expected. Most of what's in it is pretty similar to what I'd already concluded for myself and been doing. There were a couple of new things and the various stat blocks and whatnot are always useful time savers. The campaign ideas etc are mostly pretty good.

The only thing I really missed with DMG2 was any attempt to go beyond where the rules have already been laid out. They did very little of that. I guess we'll have to wait a year for DMG3 and see if they get a bit more bold...

 

[Jhaelen]

Seemed logical to me that DS was considering MM2 and DMG2 monster construction the same, since it appears that, in a general sense a least, the DMG2 updates to monster creation are along the same lines as MM2 monsters.

Well, generally, I consider the DMG guidelines to be just a starting point for the D&D developers. They're supposed to know what they're doing, so I don't mind if they deviate from the guidelines to create monsters that are both fun and an appropriate threat for their level/xp value.

I agree with the previous post on the minion thing, I suspect they're just recommending you toss in a small number of extra minions in higher level encounters, so up the number by 20% at paragon and 50% at epic. I would have to presume this means without chaning the XP of the encounter, otherwise it would hardly bear mentioning.

That was my assumption, as well. You'd either have to reduce the individual XP values _or_ add more minions without adjusting the encounter xp. It's not really relevant for my game since I don't bother giving out xp - I just tell my players when their pcs level up.

The only thing I really missed with DMG2 was any attempt to go beyond where the rules have already been laid out. They did very little of that. I guess we'll have to wait a year for DMG3 and see if they get a bit more bold...

I liked the section about alternative rewards. That's an interesting tweak to the original item rules, especially since you can decide if you just use it alongside magic items or completely replace them.

P.S.: Regarding the templates, there's an interesting developer's blog over at WOTCs (link?). Basically, he's saying he feels none of the templates really add enough power to a regular monster to make it worth double xp. Go figure.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Why is it expected that MM2 monsters conform to MM2 homebrew monster creation standards when MM1 monsters did not conform to MM1 homebrew monster creation standards?

Am I missing something here?

Nahhh... it's a variation on the 3.xE tradition of never getting a stat block right.

 

[Bagpuss]

Actually, I would be surprised if any WotC adventure ever will conform to these updated guidelines...

Will the monster builder?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Just wanted to add that I bought the DMG2 today and at first glance it looks like a darn fine book with lots of useful stuff in it (especially the Encounter/Adventure Design stuff).

I've only sped-read through the whole book at the moment, but I did take the time to study the single page on Creating Monsters and I have to say it looks pretty good. The Minion Damage table is much appreciated; though would it have killed them to go up to Level 35 for this and the other similar tables.

I also want to address one of the original problems at the start of this thread, basically that of Minions and the potential change to XP. Personally I like this 'Use 5 Minions at Paragon Tier, 6 at Epic Tier' (and potentially 7 at Levels 31-40) revision and for me I say it would and should enforce an XP change. Hopefully WotC will bring that onboard with Monster Manual 3.

 

[Elric]

I also want to address one of the original problems at the start of this thread, basically that of Minions and the potential change to XP. Personally I like this 'Use 5 Minions at Paragon Tier, 6 at Epic Tier' (and potentially 7 at Levels 31-40) revision and for me I say it would and should enforce an XP change. Hopefully WotC will bring that onboard with Monster Manual 3.

To resurrect this thread: this minions change makes no sense as presented. I can see why WotC might not want to errata all of the existing minions (though they've been using errata a lot recently).

However, once you have an XP system for balancing encounters, you can't ignore it in favor of "count minions less when planning the difficulty of combat at higher tiers." If WotC feels that minions should be worth a fifth of a monster at Paragon and a sixth at epic, their XP values need to reflect that. What if you don't get DMG 2 and just go by Monster Manual 2's XP values for minions? You won't build encounters appropriately, if 6-1 at epic is the intended ratio.

There's a thread in the WotC errata forums on this, and the response there doesn't seem too encouraging on this score: here.

 

[eamon]

To resurrect this thread: this minions change makes no sense as presented. I can see why WotC might not want to errata all of the existing minions (though they've been using errata a lot recently).

However, once you have an XP system for balancing encounters, you can't ignore it in favor of "count minions less when planning the difficulty of combat at higher tiers." If WotC feels that minions should be worth a fifth of a monster at Paragon and a sixth at epic, their XP values need to reflect that. What if you don't get DMG 2 and just go by Monster Manual 2's XP values for minions? You won't build encounters appropriately, if 6-1 at epic is the intended ratio.

There's a thread in the WotC errata forums on this, and the response there doesn't seem too encouraging on this score: here.

Well, with all fairness, the XP curve rises ever faster, and minions are just a small part of overall XP. I can imagine it's more important in practice to get encounter balance right rather than fixing a few percent error in the XP system. In any case, I agree an XP change isn't a bad idea, but it's not a big deal by any means.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry Elric (and Rovin), but I don't see what's so difficult by just adding in one or two extra minions for every four there is in the encounter, without them yielding any XP or changing the encounter budget in any way.

Seems like something that doesn't need a full-blown response to me. You simply add in a few minions; everything else stays the same. Easy.

 

[sfedi]

I agree with CapnZapp, it seems pretty simple to me.

Add the minons, don't affect the budget. Listo.