Dming Conundrum - Dice and RP

[Odhanan]

What do you all think of this? How do you run your games? How do some people encourage the RP side while givign the players the fun of throwing their own dice?

thanks all

Hello Jurble.

I feel there isn't any competition between Dice and RP. Both are elements of the game and can be used to great efficiency to get the best out of a game. One doesn't have to be chosen over the other. All is in the adaptability and sensitivity of the DM and players to the moment's tension. That's part of being a DM: you're making decisions about the logistics of the game all the time. Is it better to roll the Diplomacy check, or let the player RP the situation and see how it goes? Or both? Ultimately, that's a choice that depends on the situation, the flow of the game, and what type of pleasure the players get from each option.

Also, I think that getting a knowledge of the rules elements in game as a player (figuring out the AC, the DC of the check etc) doesn't have to disrupt the believability of the RP. Indeed, I'd go as far as saying this is one of the things that differenciate to me a good role-player from a bad one: the bad one just let his metaknowledge get in the way of a credible RP while the good one tries to use that knowledge to emphasize the believability of the RP. If for instance someone rolls and finds out a check has a DC 30, it can be used to a metagame advantage (using spells and stuff and take 10 and so on to get as many advantages as possible for the roll) or for a RP advantage (emphasizing the stress of the character, RPing the difficulty experienced in performing the action, etc) or actually both (which is okay and useful for the flow of the game).

Bottom line: the problem isn't with the dice. It's with the player.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

For three years I played under a DM who rolled all the dice. To-hit, damage, skill checks, everything. It was a style choice and he probably came to the same decision based on some of your concerns right now. He was always a very evocative DM, so I enjoyed being able to focus on his descriptions and characters and things like that. His sessions were always fun and very cinematic.

Now, rolling all the dice is a lot of work. I've tried it myself and it's not for me, and even for him it became a challenge after three or four or five hours with lots of dice rolls. But if you're serious about it, give it a try. Remember though that rolling dice is part of the entertainment, and if you're going to take something away you should provide something to replace it, e.g., be sure to keep up exciting combat descriptions.

I see a big conundrum here when it comes to rolling dice. When a player throws his dice, and gets a hit on a 17 but a miss on a 16 he immediately gets meta knowledge, which can affect how he plays.

I don't see this as metaknowledge. Does the 16 hit on a touch attack? If so then their sword strikes glanced off some armor or couldn't penetrate a creature's skin. If not, perhaps the creature has supernatural speed and zipped out of the way at the last minute. An attentive combatant learns more about his opponent as a fight progresses. It shouldn't be any different for the players. Ok, your players now know that ugly orc with the ramshackle armor has an AC of 17. I say, so what? It's not going to help them hit the bastard. It doesn't provide some concrete bonus. If they're focusing on that knowlege in combat, let them. Why shouldn't they focus on that kind of information in a life-or-death situation? Finding a way to use that knowledge creatively is the trick.

Now, if they see an NPC's spot and listen checks opposed to their Hide/MS checks... that's knowledge they probably shouldn't have.

 

[RFisher]

• Try Wushu. (I've used a similar idea of divorcing role-playing & mechanics since Warhammer FRP--my third(?) RPG.)
• Use modelling & encouragement. I find granting modifiers/XP based on role-playing tends to be counter-productive. If someone is having a hard time role-playing, the knowledge that their role-playing is going to be judged may not help.
• As others have said, worry less about role-playing during combat. (The actual fighting, that is. Banter is always good.) The players figuring out AC & such is probably less knowledge than the PCs would "actually" have.

 

[Imagicka]

Greetings…

Well, encouraging RPing can be rather difficult; especially when you have a group dynamic of players who just aren’t in the ‘mood’ to do as such. Personally, I view the players figuring out the threshold for combat to be one of the little extra bonuses. One of the perks to the game, if your so inclined to enjoy such things. When the players figure out in-game what the AC of your monster is, so that they know they have to beat X on their rolls. Well, who does it really bother? After all, they are in combat, and there really isn’t a lot of roleplaying going on at this point in time. As soon as the combat is over, that’s the end of it. The next monster is going to have a different AC.

But if you think that their knowledge of such things is disrupting the game. Or that you want them to concentrate more on their characters and their actions, instead of the rules and the numbers. It’s a lot of work… but you could take over combat for them. One of the things that most groups/GMs eventually try is the game where the GM has all the character sheets, or at least the players have character sheets without numbers. This way, the players know what their character’s abilities and skills are, but aren’t worried about the numbers.

Now, if you have access to a laptop, you can run the combat using a programme, and the players don’t have to deal with rolling dice or worry about the numbers. They can just concentrate on their actions. There are a lot of programmes out there that are good at maintaining campaigns and combat… such as: RolePlayingMaster or DM Genie or even Campaign Suite

I can’t remember if Campaign Suite handles combat. I don’t know which proramme you’ll like best. Also, I don’t know if there are other combat organizers out there… but if there are, perhaps some other people might reply and include their links as well.

However, with a programme such as DM Genie you can set up the monsters and the party, then have them do battle. All you’ll really have to do is let the players know if they hit or miss. Also, if your players want to continue to roll their own dice, you can input those numbers into the programme while your running the combat. So the players at least get the sense that their fate and luck is still in their own hands.

Or you could just organize everything by hand. I always like to keep a party list. That lists the players’ names, character names, ACs, HP, Saves and the number of ranks they have in special skills like Appraise or Search where the players don’t necessarily know the outcome of a given situation (where the DM rolls the dice for them). So, again, you have the numbers in front of you, and the players don’t.

As for giving colour commentary about combat situations, I know that I personally like to do this in a game. I believe that most of my players would desire I do such, rather than simply saying “you hit, you miss”. Now, of course, I do shorten things when combat is becoming long, boring and tedious. But I think most players would rather have more colour commentary than not.

 

[Kularian]

A former DM of mine had a really unique idea that worked well for keeping the combat, and all other such going. Before each session, he'd have a program roll out about 300 d20 rolls, and then 100 of each d4, d6, d8, etc. As each roll was needed, he'd just cross it off the list and factor in the result. Now that was cool, as the game was virtually diceless. But one of my friends (who consistently rolls 15 or higher. It's disgusting) was getting irritated because he didn't crit every other hit, *rolls eyes* But it worked for as long as we used it, and might be a viable alternative to test out if you wanted.

 

[the Jester]

Be careful. If you just spring taking the dice out of the players' hands on them, they might not like it. Some of them will prolly wonder if you think they're cheating.

Have you considered discussing this with the group? If you explain your reasoning, they'll prolly be less rebellious than if you just spring it on them as a fait accompli, but I doubt whether they'll like the idea either way. :\

In the old days of 1st edition, our primary dm rolled damage and saving throws for us, but even then we still rolled our own attack rolls.