DMing large groups. (Halp)

That is a really interesting idea (squad based combat), but wouldn't that cause some players with low to medium ACs to be affected far more readily than ones with higher ACs?

The Rogue or Druid with an 18 will feel the effects of Aid Another far more than the Fighter with 22 or better.

Not that I can think of. The PCs with low to middlin' ACs are already being hit more often. The increase due to aiding another will probably be a smaller change in rate of being hit than for PCs at the high end of the AC scale.
 

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In fights, to compensate for the extra PCs, include lots of extra monsters. Do not make your few monsters stronger. Doing that results in the few monsters getting gang-tackled by the PCs, while more, weaker monsters means that the PCs have to spread their attention around, and thus each player can feel like they are more directly contributing to the overall success of a combat. Additionally, it tends to spread the damage around the party a little bit better, so you don't end up with a few very powerful monsters all focus-firing on the same PC (the opposite view of what the PCs will do if you just run a couple strong monsters).

I would add it's not just the PCs gang-tackling the few, tougher monsters. Up-gunning the monsters in power may lead to them having ACs, to hit mods, and damage abilities well beyond what the PCs can reasonably handle. Keeping the monster toughness static but increasing their numbers is the way to go.

For those encounters where you want a BBEG, include minions - additional enemies that can soak up an action or two but aren't nearly as tough as the BBEG. They keep the PCs from concentrating so much and overwhelming the BBEG with actions, but they don't tip the power of the encounter too high.
 

In my DMing experience (about ten years now), I've typically played with smaller groups (2-4 players) and I've had great success with it.

At the end of the month, I'm moving to Chicago to be with my wife (who is in the Navy) and five of her shipmates have expressed interest in playing the game, though two are relatively new an one has never played.

I've never DM'd a group of six before, and I was wondering if you who have could give some tips on how to make sure everyone gets equal playtime and spotlight, so that all of them enjoy them game and be included without feeling left out.


You'll hear me talk about this like a broken record, but IMO, the most important thing everyone needs is purpose. Here are some suggestions along those lines.

1) Elminate Multiclassing

Multiclassing creates a number of problems in campaigns...and this is even more true with inexperienced players. First and foremost, the essence of D&D is really about playing your character, not building your character. Players new to game will have enough to worry about with simply choosing skills and feats. Help them out by taking multi-classing off the table at least for their first campaign. I'm not saying the build process is bad, I'm saying that new players won't have enough experiences to draw on to make good multi-classing decisions. And more to the point, they won't feel like they're missing anything if they can't do it. Let them all play pure classes and use that foundation the next go around to explore multi-classing.

If you let the Ranger start taking Rogue or vice versa, it's realling going to make the other guy feel marginlized. The last thing you want is for the Rogue/Ranger/Bard to out track the Ranger or out perform the Bard.

2) Require everyone play a different class.

This is huge. If you're worried about giving airtime to each person...the best way to do this is to run pure classes and run them unique. This alone will compensate for a lot because everyone will feel unique in and of themselves. In addition, it's a lot easier to design encounters around specific class abilities than it is around personalities. You're going to have a harder time making an encounter tailor to three Barbarians versus the Barb, Fighter, and Ranger. It's hard to isolate the Ranger 2 /Rogue 4 from the Rogue 2/ Ranger 4.

Also, there are so many classes in 3.5, it shouldn't be a problem for everyone to take a unique class without multiclassing.

3) Avoid large scale combat; Limit the Combat

Contrary to Patryn and a lot of others, I think you'll get higher dividends on fewer but larger tougher opponents than lots of weak ones.

1. A big opponent engenders a higher level of teamwork when the whole party gangs up on it.

2. Time. Lots of small targets is going to be a logistics nightmare for you as a DM. This translates in to long complicated and confusing battles for new players who aren't familiar with the movement and AoO rules. This will kill the enthusiasm for any players who are on the fence about the game. Trust me.

3. Simplify. Large targets allow you to simplify combat. Less movement allows you to often ignore many things and allows the players focus on the damage dealing rather than their positioning.

4. With one large creature, it's very easy for you as a DM to spread around the attacks and choose targets that can survive the damage. More importantly, this allows you to give airtime to the guy who you convinced to take Combat Expertise (because you knew you could use him here). If you stick a creature on every single PC, you're going to cause yourself a lot more headache when those weak PC's get unlucky and go down.


Fewer targets means faster battles, less confusion, less chance for PC's to be unlucky, and engenders the team feeling more like a group rather than a bunch of isolated individuals.

4) Manage the flow of information

Invariably, a few people will do most of the talking. By channeling critical information through the quiet ones...they will get air time and feel more important. One thing I often do is hand out notes with info to players who make spot checks, rather than just informing the whole party of what that person sees.

Also, you can give players prewritten information crucial to the story, but not available to the whole party as part of their knowlege checks or backgrounds.

5) Split up the party on occassion

Provide several opportunities for the parties to split up both voluntarily and unvoluntarily. Sure, some may have go watch TV in the next room for 1/2 hour...or better yet, they can catch up on some source book readng...but it won't be that big a deal. Smaller groups automatically allow people to feel more important. In addition, you said you're better with small groups, so it will enahce the players experience. You'll also create the added benefit of giving the two groups an opportunity to share their separate adventures.

I'm not saying I'm right about any of these suggestions...I'm just trying to help.
 
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Not that I can think of. The PCs with low to middlin' ACs are already being hit more often. The increase due to aiding another will probably be a smaller change in rate of being hit than for PCs at the high end of the AC scale.

Consider the Fighter with the 24 AC at level 2. (Dex/Armor/Shield/Combat Expertise). It isn't outlandish at all, and most things you fight still have a +0 or +1 to attack rolls. He's effectively immune.
You would need two Aid Another checks to be able to be hit on a 19, which brings his 5% down to 10%.

Consider the Rogue with his 16 or 18 (Dex/Armor). At 16, his chance of being hit is 20%. With two Aid Anothers, that increases to 40%.

It is a 10% difference overall because the fighter can ignore the first Aid Another check.
 

I don't think a +0 or +1 to attack rolls is common at low levels at all, so I don't think the "immunity" part is as big an issue as you raise.

Additionally, consider three kobolds attacking a rogue, each of whom, individually, has a 20% chance to hit (e.g., they hit on a roll of 17 or better). Ignoring crits for the moment, each is wielding a shortsword and does 1d6 points of damage, or 3.5 on an average hit.

On an average attack, then, they do Chance to Hit * Damage per Hit, or 20% * 3.5, or 0.7 damage per attack. There's three of them, so three attacks do an average of 2.1 damage per round.

If, instead of attacking, the other kobolds aid another on the first guy's attempt, they increase his chance to hit from 20% to 40%. So the first kobold, who attacks "for real," does 40% * 3.5, or 1.4 damage per round. Thus, by combining your attacks, you're actually doing less average damage per round than if each kobold attacked separately.

What you've actually done is reduced the number of rolls you need to make per round while keeping average the average damage per round (1.4 for the combined vs. 2.1 for the separated) and the average number of rounds in which hits occur (40% for the combined vs. ~49% for the singles) close enough for government work.

Moreover, by reducing the number of rolls, you've also reduced the swinginess of combat - gone is the 0.8% chance of all three kobolds hitting in the same round and one-round-KOing a character.

Additionally, to respond to [MENTION=6679551]Arrowhawk[/MENTION] 's point three above:

3) Avoid large scale combat; Limit the Combat

I disagree with this advice in pretty much the strongest way possible. Why?

Because the characters who do the 1st through the 40th points of damage to a badguy don't really get to feel like they did something meaningful (unless a pile of them were done via a cool crit, but even then ...). The guy who does the 41st through the 46th and knocks it out? Yeah - he "killed" the monster.

And, here's a little secret:

When you clump up a bunch of weaker monsters into a squad, do you know what you're really doing?

:shiftyeyes:

You're making a single, large monster against which attrition matters.

This is not normally the case in D&D combat; a large monster threatens all the same squares regardless of whether it is at 100% HP or 5% HP, and it does the same damage at half hit points as at 1 left.

If, instead, you use a "squad," then for each appropriate percentage of hit points you hack away, you reduce the composite monster's attack bonus, size, reach, threatened area, etc., and your players get to see more monsters fall over and die on more characters' turns. More players get to feel like they're accomplishing things, rather than just ablating a monster's plot armor so that someone else can "win the fight."

It also tends to make spellcaster area-of-effect damage better, which may have the side effect of reducing caster tendency to work towards battlefield control and obviation, which will bring them closer in-line with the ground-pounders.
 

For initiative management... I cheat. I went to the hardware store and bought some sheets of metal flashing. It's used in roofing. You want steel, not aluminum.

Next I laid out a battle reference sheet.....

This is exactly why you don't want six PC's fighting 12-20 creatures in a battle. Logistics. Considering you aren't going to be appearing on Orange County Choppers anytime soon, you probably won't be availiing yourself of sheetmetal solutions. You know what's far worse than the Barbarian doing 50pts of damage while watching the Bard get the kill by doing 5? The Bard sitting round for 10 minutes twiddling his thumbs while you are trying to figure out who is where, who went last, how many hitpoints Gnoll #6 had or whether you remembered to add the flanking bonus for the Rogue given the Bard was fighting defensively.

D&D is not set up for efficient large scale tactical combat. If you add a bunch of newbies to that dogpile you're going to get people tuning out.

The fact that large scale creatures threaten multiple squares is irrelevant. You, the DM, decides who the creatures attack and that includes AoO. If I'm an Ogre, I may ignore the Bard who moves out of range and hadn't hit me once, and be far more concerned with the movement of the frontline fighters. More creatures means more exposure to everyone and that makes it harder for you to make discretionary decisions. The ony thing you accomlish by sticking everyone with a foe is exposing those who suck at combat and making them feel even more inadequate against the guy who took Power Attack, Cleave, and has the 18 Str.

And as far as kill stealing? Trust me, a Fighter with Power Attack and Cleave is going to do far more kill stealing than the Bard who gets the last shot in. Better to let the Bard enjoy the false glory of scoring the kill...the few times he gets it. The party already knows who the heavy hitters are and this way everyone wins.

The beauty of it....you can try it both ways. It'll be interesting to see how it goes.
 

I've always used white boards for my DMing. I have a large one (24inches) I use for maps and other player information, and a few smaller (10 inch) ones that I use for initiative and other modifiers I need to have handy.

There isn't any confusion when you have a battlegrid on top of a map with each player's piece and each unit's piece occupying the appropriate square, it's very easy to read.
 

This is exactly why you don't want six PC's fighting 12-20 creatures in a battle. Logistics. [...] thumbs while you are trying to figure out who is where, who went last, how many hitpoints Gnoll #6 had or whether you remembered to add the flanking bonus for the Rogue given the Bard was fighting defensively.

Yeah, apart from the fact that half of those issues are solved by either the use of miniatures or because of the fact that the players should be keeping track of them, the whole point of using "squads" is that you don't have to track a large part of that stuff.

Consider what actually happens when you run that combat with 20 badguys -I'll go with orcs, 'cause why not?, so 6 orc archers, 4 orc spearmen, 6 warriors, 2 orc swordsmen, an orc shaman, and an orc commander - against the 6 PCs.

When setting up the combat, you sort the orcs into squads - there's a couple ways of doing this, depending on how much trade-off you want between speed and flexibility. I'd probably do it as:

  • 3 archers
  • 3 archers
  • 4 spearmen
  • 3 warriors
  • 3 warriors
  • Commander and a swordsman
  • Shaman and a swordsman

So, I'm running a combat wherein I have 20 badguy miniatures on the ground, but for which I only need to track 7 badguys - or, roughly, 1 per PC. I could further collapse the archers and warriors into single squads if I wanted fewer monsters, but I am pretty practiced at running larger combats, so the additional badguys aren't really an issue for me.

Even without collapsing them, though, I have dramatically reduced the number of combat decisions I need to make as a DM; the archers, each round, are going to shoot - so that's two attacks from them - but they're all going to shoot at the same target (well, two targets, for two squads). The spearmen are going to form a line somewhere, and not really move much; they're providng support for the more-mobile warriors and cover for the archers. Etc.

In fact, the complicated guy here is the Shaman, because he's a spellcaster - and that can be sped up by making a list in advance of the 5 spells he'll cast during this combat. While, presumably and after the intro levels, he'll have access to a lot more, the chances of him actually getting that far into his "batting order" are not enough to worry about. Having an electronic spellbook on hand can really help with this.

The commander, additionally, is going to be a more-complicated combatant, because having one-or-two complicated types per combat allows the DM to have fun. I'll spend more time statting him up and thinking about his move.

As far as handling initiative, that's what the cards are for (just use normal 3x5 cards). For the PCs, I have them fill it out with commonly referenced information: player / character name, Spot / Listen skill bonuses, their various ACs, max HPs, save bonuses, etc. This is my "I need this information but don't want to ask the players for it every time" quick reference. I also have 3 or 4 (blanks) on-hand for the monsters, and note at the beginning of each combat which monster group it represents and what their init result is. Then, we go around the table once, everyone says what their init result is, and you sort the cards appropriately. The card on top is the current turn. When a character's turn is done, you put them on the bottom of the pile. When a character readies or delays, turn their card 90 degress, and put it on the bottom of the pile; when their action triggers / they undelay, pull the card out and place it on top to show their new position in the initiative order, the shuffle it to the back as normal after resolving their action(s).

In this case, I'd probably go with 4 cards for the monsters: archers, spearmen, warriors, and commander / shaman. I could go with 1 card per squad, but that would spread the monsters out a little further than I want. I could go with 1 card for all of the monsters, but that makes the monster turns too lumpy. I might additionally add the commander to the spearmen init card, and keep the shaman alone, in order to spread out my "complicated" turns.

The whole combat, including all my notes on monster ACs, saves, special abilities, etc., fits on a single sheet of paper, if I want to track individual monster HP (I usually do). [Made-up stats below!] Starting at the top left of the page, I'll write "Archer Squad #1," then their defense (AC: 15; T: 12; FF: 13; F: +4; W: +0; R: +3) and attack lines (CL Bows (1): +4 1d8+1; PBS, RS). To the right of the Squad #1, I'll have "Orc 1, Orc 2, Orc 3" with their current HP underneath. I'll draw a little box around the whole thing, and under it put "Archer Squad #2 Same as 1; Orc 1, Orc 2, Orc 3" and their current HP.

Now, here's the trick to keeping it all straight in your head: lower numbers are closer to the DM (or to my left, if the battle is drawn up the other way). So, Archer Squad #1 starts the battle closest to me, and within that squad, Orc 1 starts closest to me. However the battle plays out, that's how those orcs are going to maneuver. This lets me easily track specific damage. The orcs of a given squad will always stay more-or-less together, and they'll always stay distinct from those squads of similar make-up (e.g., don't have the two archer squads standing next to each other; put, e.g., the spear orcs inbetween them). If they "break and run," they'll break and run together.

Here's the other trick: most players, if given an option, will prefer to shoot at / attack the already damaged monsters, especially if they were the one who damaged it the last round. Accordingly, the difference, the vast majority of the time, between tracking individual damage and "squad damage" is minimal. If you want to track squad damage, then all you have to do is total up the HP for the squad, and make a note of the break points. If each orc had 10 HP, for instance, then I'd write "Archer Squad #1 30 HP (20, 10)", and at each break point, knock over an orc mini on the table.

D&D is not set up for efficient large scale tactical combat. If you add a bunch of newbies to that dogpile you're going to get people tuning out.

That's why it is so important to keep things moving, but also to make sure that on any given player's turn, meaningful progress can occur. Killing an orc is meaningful progress - you can see the changes actually happening on the battlefield. Taking off 25% of a still-standing monster's hit points is really, really hard to actually notice.

The beauty of it....you can try it both ways. It'll be interesting to see how it goes.

Yeah - try both ways.
 
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I base all my figures using 3/4 inch magnetic rubber strips. A little putty, a little paint, a little scenery "grass" (green flocking), and voila! Standard sizes, and figs that stay up.

As a bonus, my carrying cases have metal bottoms, so the figs stick to them in transit.

Why should anyone in this thread care? Because of this next tip: I got some 1 inch fender washers from the local hardware store and put magnetic material on them too. I then painted them with flat white primer. I got some 2 inch ones as well.

The figs stick to the circular white disks, and the unused disks hold themselves in a nice neat stack.

Now, when I have a lot of critters on the field, I pop each one onto a white base, and write a number on that base. So, even if I have 50 of the exact same fig on the board, moving all over the field during combat, I can always keep track of each critter's hit points. Just do it by the numbers.

The 2 inch disks work under large figs, and can designate any mini as "large" if I don't have the right fig handy.

I can also stack several of the small disks together under a fig to denote when someone or something is flying. All around useful.
 

So, I'm running a combat wherein I have 20 badguy ***
Ignoring that you just wrote a treatise on how to deal with it...and same damn fine suggestions I might add...you kind of proved my point. ;)

It certainly sounds like some DM's have a better handle on large squad combat than others, but my point is not whether the DM can handle it, but will players get bored between their chances to roll a die...miss..and then wait some more.

But a question, in large groups, 5-8, do people find that one or two people still try to or end up running all the combat manuevers? I find the women in our group couldn't care less about the tactical game. They are happy to roll dice, but they leave all the tactical stuff to the others.
 

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