D&D 5E DM's: How Do You Justify NPC's Having Magic/Abilities That Don't Exist in the PHB?

[Micah Sweet]

Out of curiosity, what's your personal take on the "class in fiction" question?

I think classes more or less do exist in the setting, because in my view PCs are not that special. There are other people trained as fighters, or wizards, or clerics. The PC warlock is not the only being who made a pact with an extra-large entity. Druids, clerics,, paladins, and even rangers, in the text of the PH, often belong to organizations, often based around subclass. There is clear textual evidence that classes exist in the setting if you want them to.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think there are very few mechanics that don't map to the fiction. Stuff like "Brute" would be a necessary but unfortunate short-hand in my view, and my goal is to avoid that kind of thing whenever possible.

I do not agree that mechanics directly map to the fiction, I refer you to the cliff top fight in the Princess Bride between Wesley and Inigo. Both loose hit points with Inigo going to zero but neither takes wound until the end, when Wesley knocks out Inigo.

 

[Blue]

Think of it more as "they got it wrong" for you. Obviously that was a choice they made, likely to maintain the simplicity that is their top priority this edition and which is continuing to get more important as they design the new edition.

They got it fine for me, it was Lanfane who said that. Classes don't exist i-world in my opinion, which is backed up by NPCs not using them. I don't need NPCs to match PCs or vice versa.

Actually, from the "game" perspective of RPG, if monster math is different than PC math (and it is - quite a different ratio of HPs to damage done), then I'd rather NPCs be built with the same monster math.

But it actually doesn't matter that much to me that NPC statblocks don't resemble PCs. Way back at the beginning of this thread, my claim was simply that a PC should in theory be able to acquire any ability an NPC who represents a person similar to a PC (like an archmage, or a gladiator) can do. It might be very difficult, or even impractical, but I believe it should be possible, and the DM should, IMO, be able to answer a player's question about that in an in-universe, non-gamist way.

shrug I am fine that a PC can't pick up everything as it makes sense for me. This is a racial feature from another race. This is a 3000 year old being and we're not going to cover that amount of time in game. This is an aberration that did not develop with the same physical characteristics as the material plane. This is a divine servant to a god you don't worship. Plenty of stuff I could see a PC would never have access to. Heck, even just "oh look, the archmage had d8 HP per level". But it's no skin off my nose if you want to let the PCs get them, I'll support that.

That's still what I believe, but of course there are other schools of thought. Other games, particularly narrative sorts and genre-emulators, may operate under a different paradigm. And that's ok.

We're in agreement here. I just gave a 5e-D&D-centric answer because that's the forum & tag for this thread.

 

[Pedantic]

Most people for most of human history have believed in magic of some or other variety. And most have not "done science to it".

I'm not really sure that understanding of "magic" has any relationship to what we're discussing here, nor do I necessarily grant the premise. There are many historical my traditions of practical magic that just happened not to be true, or were concerned primarily with things outside observable reality. Best medical practices involved the chanting of specific spells, offering the correct sacrifices to propitiate the correct spirits and so on.

The idea of "mystery" outside of actual practitioners hiding their techniques, I think is largely a projection backwards, with a modern lens.

More to the point though, I don't see why magical traditions that demonstrably don't create exceptions to physical reality should have much influence on those that do. If cause and effect draw close enough that we can see the relationship between a magical gesture and a person flying, we're not dealing with a mystery cult that swears they can tell you the 6 spells to pass through the afterlife judgement unscathed, and the same norms do not apply.

For my part, if I want to run a sci-fi RPG I will do that - my favourite is Classic Traveller, which I really like (and have a lot of actual play posts on these boards if you're interested).

Science-fiction is a different genre, that proposed forward extrapolation from known facts, and usually a brushed metal aesthetic. It's dismissive to suggests worldbuilding with underlying principles is somehow not the province of the genre we're discussing. Hard fantasy is hardly a new genre, and it differs significantly in the personal relationship to reality altering power than sci-fi. Science fiction emphasizes the industrial and social context of such abilities: you might tinker with a hyper drive, but you bought one, and many more are made in factories. Magic emphasizes the personal relationship to changing reality: the magical bandages you bought were invested with power by a person using a method they individually understand.

There's overlap, you can have your action inventors in sci-fi and your rune circle production lines in fantasy, but the default orientation of the relationship between individual/society runs the opposite way.

 

[CleverNickName]

Well like many other folks in the thread, the short answer for me is, "I get creative."

In my campaign, NPCs and other monsters use their own rules. They have their own classes and subclasses, their own backgrounds and lineages, and they have their own feats, powers, abilities, and action options...most of which are not available to the players. For example, there is a villain in my campaign. He resembles a warlock or a cleric in a lot of ways, but this will never be fully explained or defined. His deity/domain/patron/whatever it might be is not one of the options available to to the players, which frees me up to use all-new abilities, feats, and spells.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do not agree that mechanics directly map to the fiction, I refer you to the cliff top fight in the Princess Bride between Wesley and Inigo. Both loose hit points with Inigo going to zero but neither takes wound until the end, when Wesley knocks out Inigo.

I'm talking about D&D here. If I were to RPG The Princess Bride, a more narrative system would be a much better fit.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'm talking about D&D here. If I were to RPG The Princess Bride, a more narrative system would be a much better fit.

I am talking D&D also.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am talking D&D also.

And I'm saying D&D is a poor choice for The Princess Bride.

 

[James Gasik]

Don't some enemies in Monsters of the Multiverse have class tags, identifying them as members of a character class?

 

[Irlo]

Don't some enemies in Monsters of the Multiverse have class tags, identifying them as members of a character class?

Not as members of the class. It’s very limited;

“is considered a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for magic items.”