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DM's what kinds of monster features 'annoy' you or make your job harder?
- Thread starter Emirikol
- Start date
Bug, not feature.
Dog Moon
Adventurer
To go along with the stuff above, I would also add a specific type of creature: Lycanthropes.
First of all, you need THREE sets of stat blocks for this creature, which makes it annoying.
Secondly, it has a disease which the creature probably would want to inflict on people, but DMs don't want to because they then have to worry about their PCs becoming Lycanthropes and players don't really want it either because between the LA adjustment and HD loss for decent creatures, it hurts your character WAY too much.
First of all, you need THREE sets of stat blocks for this creature, which makes it annoying.
Secondly, it has a disease which the creature probably would want to inflict on people, but DMs don't want to because they then have to worry about their PCs becoming Lycanthropes and players don't really want it either because between the LA adjustment and HD loss for decent creatures, it hurts your character WAY too much.
Dog Moon
Adventurer
Oh yeah, DR/Magic. Now, I sort of disliked DR x/+1-+5, but I think the DR/magic is almost worse. I like the DR/adamantine, silver, etc, but Magic is just...bleh.
A fair number of creatures have DR/magic. When you're level 15 fighting that great opponent, it doesn't matter if it has DR 1000/magic or DR 5/magic cause by that time everyone has magic weapons anyway. Heck, at that point, creatures would be better off having DR/NOTmagic...
I almost think we should have DR +'s as well as DR metals, but I haven't quite convinced myself of that quite yet.
A fair number of creatures have DR/magic. When you're level 15 fighting that great opponent, it doesn't matter if it has DR 1000/magic or DR 5/magic cause by that time everyone has magic weapons anyway. Heck, at that point, creatures would be better off having DR/NOTmagic...
I almost think we should have DR +'s as well as DR metals, but I haven't quite convinced myself of that quite yet.
Robert Ranting
First Post
There are two broad categories of monsters that I dislike.
1) Boss Monsters like Beholders, Dragons, and many high-level devils. While cool conceptually, they are generally much more difficult to run as a DM. Since players are completely unpredictable, there's no real way to plan ahead for one of these encounters, so I keep finding myself looking through their descriptions looking for good counters to the current PC tactics. Generally, the creature (or the party) just gets mulched in a couple rounds, and everyone, DM and PC alike, feels let down by what should have been an awesome encounter.
2) Stat-change carriers. Any creature that can change your character's base ability scores, character level, or grant a character a template through basic, often automatic combat actions like using their standard attacks. Lycanthropes and most "spawner" undead like shadows, ghouls and vampires make up the majority of this category. While I can see the storytelling potential in having an encounter with long-lasting effects on a character, the mechanics make such stories either difficult (LA and HD as Dog Moon pointed out) or trivial (restoration, remove disease, remove curse, etc.) Lycanthropes further complicate the issue by having multiple forms, meaning that not only does a transformed PC need to re-work his character around the LA and HD, but he needs to have lots of extra pages for his character sheet to detail his three forms.
As for the damage reduction issue, I tend to use Monte Cook's alternate DR system presented here: http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction
This has worked well for me, especially since I tend to run Arcana Evolved, where Mageblades, Iron Witches, and Champions all have class abilities that grant them scaling bonuses to weapon enhancements as they level. It keeps the enhancement bonus relevant and helps reduce the "golf bag" syndrome. At lower level, it is still cheaper to buy a silver weapon to hurt the local werewolf, but once you get into the mid-range, you can just carve through a pack of them with your +2 weapon on your way to fight their lord.
Robert "I generally like Monstrous Humanoids, Plants, Aberrations and Giants" Ranting
1) Boss Monsters like Beholders, Dragons, and many high-level devils. While cool conceptually, they are generally much more difficult to run as a DM. Since players are completely unpredictable, there's no real way to plan ahead for one of these encounters, so I keep finding myself looking through their descriptions looking for good counters to the current PC tactics. Generally, the creature (or the party) just gets mulched in a couple rounds, and everyone, DM and PC alike, feels let down by what should have been an awesome encounter.
2) Stat-change carriers. Any creature that can change your character's base ability scores, character level, or grant a character a template through basic, often automatic combat actions like using their standard attacks. Lycanthropes and most "spawner" undead like shadows, ghouls and vampires make up the majority of this category. While I can see the storytelling potential in having an encounter with long-lasting effects on a character, the mechanics make such stories either difficult (LA and HD as Dog Moon pointed out) or trivial (restoration, remove disease, remove curse, etc.) Lycanthropes further complicate the issue by having multiple forms, meaning that not only does a transformed PC need to re-work his character around the LA and HD, but he needs to have lots of extra pages for his character sheet to detail his three forms.
As for the damage reduction issue, I tend to use Monte Cook's alternate DR system presented here: http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction
This has worked well for me, especially since I tend to run Arcana Evolved, where Mageblades, Iron Witches, and Champions all have class abilities that grant them scaling bonuses to weapon enhancements as they level. It keeps the enhancement bonus relevant and helps reduce the "golf bag" syndrome. At lower level, it is still cheaper to buy a silver weapon to hurt the local werewolf, but once you get into the mid-range, you can just carve through a pack of them with your +2 weapon on your way to fight their lord.
Robert "I generally like Monstrous Humanoids, Plants, Aberrations and Giants" Ranting
Swallow Whole as written. In my games, if a swallowed character cuts his way out, then there's no "Muscles close the hole" nonsense. The monster instead has a big man-sized hole in its stomach, and is probably dieing unless it has magical healing. And any character that gets swallowed afterwards can use that hole to escape.
Snowy
Explorer
I just read, the complaints about lycanthropes, agreed with them completely and had a gotcha moment when I realised what I want to do.
Make a template LA +0, involves the PC thats been affected turning into a wild animal and all the normal things associated with a lycanthrope but isn't a major power boost.
Then make some feats and a class that let you develop it if you want to take them, or you can suffer it, or you can seek a cure.
Amazing, thanks to whoever it was that just sparked my imagination.
P.S. best description I read on these boards for Swallow whole was for the unfortunate victim to be being worried and shaken in the mouth or the beastie and the damage causing the holder to let go, less wacky.
Make a template LA +0, involves the PC thats been affected turning into a wild animal and all the normal things associated with a lycanthrope but isn't a major power boost.
Then make some feats and a class that let you develop it if you want to take them, or you can suffer it, or you can seek a cure.
Amazing, thanks to whoever it was that just sparked my imagination.
P.S. best description I read on these boards for Swallow whole was for the unfortunate victim to be being worried and shaken in the mouth or the beastie and the damage causing the holder to let go, less wacky.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
Some Counter points to consider
Reading some of the DM gripes here, I must say that I do not agree with a few of them.
With respect to Monsters built around the Grapple mechanic, there are the following complaints.
- Too many have it.
- Too hard for a PC to escape the grapple
I would say that while too many creatures having the ability is a legitimate complaint, I do not think that having the Grapple as being too hard to escape for the target caught in it is that big a deal. In general, once most creatures are grappling another character, it is very vulnerable to being attacked by the other players. I do not see this as being the fault of the monster as much as I see it being the fault of an over complicated game mechanic.
I agree that the Sunder mechanic as applied to Hydra's sucks. However, in fantasy, the 'cut off 1 head, grow 2' mechanic is a classic trope worth preserving. Given that a Hydra also seems to be built to be a Solo monster for 3.5 (It has enough actions to engage everyone), I am not sure if there is a better way to do the head severing.
And I completely disagree with the comment regarding monsters using improved trip.
Now, what do I consider to be annoying monster features?
Save or Screwed effects
Not only save or die, but any effect which when you fail the saving throw, you are essentially as good as dead. This is more a complaint with the Web spell and Entangle, since even if you make the save, it is nearly impossible to escape the webs before you are dead.
Fear effects granting only 1 save.
Dragon Fear, and the Fear spell will result in someone being Panicked, and running away. No big deal, except that they are screwed for the duration. And the usefulness is essentially twice the duration. If you spend 3 rounds running away, you have to spend 3 rounds coming back. The Hold Person spell got it right, allow a save every round to escape the effect if that effect puts them out of the fight.
Undead vs Turn Undead
A whole subtype of monsters that can be annihilated by just 1 of the players in the party? Fights spent running away? The only way to make Undead a challenge is to throw a bunch of fodder in there to soak up the turning. And if the cleric botches the turn attempt. or happens to die on you, your left with a TPK encounter. I use the Turning does Damage variant.
Swiss Army Knife Monster
Monsters with huge arrays of abilities that while potentially useful, manage to go beyond what you would expect to use in a typical encounter. Some of this is redundant abilities (Sleep at will on a CR 9 monster). Most often though, this is the result of throwing Sorcerer levels on monsters that have enough abilities that the majority of those spells end up becoming used for buffs. A dragon ought to have some ability to Scry or cast Alarm, or Detect Magic. Being able to dispel magic or use Protection from Good is not a bad choice either. But monsters should not be expected or need to Self Buff. And being able to cast Fireball is a waste of time for a Dragon with a Breath weapon.
Ariel Combat
The rules are a bit of a pain in the ass, though I must admit that I do not really have any better ideas.
Other complaints Not specific to monsters
Summon Monster spells
There is no way a Celestial Bison with 40 or so HP and DR 5/magic is the same CR as a Small Fire Elemental with a low AC and few hp.
END COMMUNICATION
Reading some of the DM gripes here, I must say that I do not agree with a few of them.
With respect to Monsters built around the Grapple mechanic, there are the following complaints.
- Too many have it.
- Too hard for a PC to escape the grapple
I would say that while too many creatures having the ability is a legitimate complaint, I do not think that having the Grapple as being too hard to escape for the target caught in it is that big a deal. In general, once most creatures are grappling another character, it is very vulnerable to being attacked by the other players. I do not see this as being the fault of the monster as much as I see it being the fault of an over complicated game mechanic.
I agree that the Sunder mechanic as applied to Hydra's sucks. However, in fantasy, the 'cut off 1 head, grow 2' mechanic is a classic trope worth preserving. Given that a Hydra also seems to be built to be a Solo monster for 3.5 (It has enough actions to engage everyone), I am not sure if there is a better way to do the head severing.
And I completely disagree with the comment regarding monsters using improved trip.
Now, what do I consider to be annoying monster features?
Save or Screwed effects
Not only save or die, but any effect which when you fail the saving throw, you are essentially as good as dead. This is more a complaint with the Web spell and Entangle, since even if you make the save, it is nearly impossible to escape the webs before you are dead.
Fear effects granting only 1 save.
Dragon Fear, and the Fear spell will result in someone being Panicked, and running away. No big deal, except that they are screwed for the duration. And the usefulness is essentially twice the duration. If you spend 3 rounds running away, you have to spend 3 rounds coming back. The Hold Person spell got it right, allow a save every round to escape the effect if that effect puts them out of the fight.
Undead vs Turn Undead
A whole subtype of monsters that can be annihilated by just 1 of the players in the party? Fights spent running away? The only way to make Undead a challenge is to throw a bunch of fodder in there to soak up the turning. And if the cleric botches the turn attempt. or happens to die on you, your left with a TPK encounter. I use the Turning does Damage variant.
Swiss Army Knife Monster
Monsters with huge arrays of abilities that while potentially useful, manage to go beyond what you would expect to use in a typical encounter. Some of this is redundant abilities (Sleep at will on a CR 9 monster). Most often though, this is the result of throwing Sorcerer levels on monsters that have enough abilities that the majority of those spells end up becoming used for buffs. A dragon ought to have some ability to Scry or cast Alarm, or Detect Magic. Being able to dispel magic or use Protection from Good is not a bad choice either. But monsters should not be expected or need to Self Buff. And being able to cast Fireball is a waste of time for a Dragon with a Breath weapon.
Ariel Combat
The rules are a bit of a pain in the ass, though I must admit that I do not really have any better ideas.
Other complaints Not specific to monsters
Summon Monster spells
There is no way a Celestial Bison with 40 or so HP and DR 5/magic is the same CR as a Small Fire Elemental with a low AC and few hp.
END COMMUNICATION
VirgilCaine
First Post
Lord Zardoz said:
I, uh, guess you failed to note the slight advantage of the Long range on Fireball, huh?
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