DnD Adventures in 4th Age Middle Earth... Ideas?

[Steverooo]

It doesn't seem to me that high level D&D characters would necessarily be out of place in middle earth. (Although fireballs would be).

Oh, I don't know... I've always wondered what the Lord of the Nazgul blew down the gates of Minas Tirith with...

There are two ways to go with 3e in FA ME. One is to revamp the spell lists. Two is to say this these are new spells, gleaned from the ruins of Barad-Dur, etc. If you go the latter route, suspicion of the PCs wielding the "new magics" should run rampant, as "it is dangerous to study too deeply the arts of the enemy!"

 

[Errant]

The collective creativity & lore of the EN World community never ceases to amaze me. Thanks again to everyone that has contributed their ideas to this topic.

No time for a details response atm unfortunately, but I do have a quick question - does anyone know if there's actually a reference to 'magic' being used by anyone to directly harm a living creature in Tolkien's Middle Earth (movies or otherwise)?

I had a house rule in mind that banning all magic that could directly (physically?) harm living creatures might go a long way to eliminating the "flash-bang" type magic that seems to go so strongly against the grain of ME. I don't want to hijack my own topic & get this thread bumped to the house rules forum (I'll get around to starting another thread there in a couple of days), but I thought the learned hereabouts might be able to set me straight on the background aspect my harmful magic question (as above).

The clash between Saruman & Gandalf inside Isengard comes to mind, with each of them hurling the other against the walls etc, but I think that could be interpreted as a secondary effect of Telekinesis magic. The Telekinesis magic itself doesn't hurt anyone, its the result of being picked up & moved rapidly toward an immobile object that does it.... semantics I know, but if thats the strongest example I think I can work with it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

You aren't kidding. Aragorn was ninety during the War of the Ring, and lived to two hundred and ten, still hale and vigorous.

True, but Aragorn was a special case. He was a throwback to when Numenoreans lived for centuries. Presumably by the Third Age they had diminished so that their lifespans were, on average, no greater than ordinary men. Some might have lived to be quite a bit older than the ordinary human on occasion, but it can be assumed, based on how unusual it was for Aragorn to live as long as he did, that none of them approached 200. Except for maybe the royal line, and even then, Aragorn was still the longest-lived of them since before the fall of the north kingdom.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Another possible idea maybe:

The Reunited KIngdom expands and grows. Some sturdy Gondorian noble undertakes a mission north to find the lost palantir of Arnor swallowed by the icy wastes centuries ago.

One of the very last MERP books produced was a supermodule about exactly this, called Palantir Quest, naturally enough. It was set in the early 4th Age, and Aragorn - by this time King Elessar - commissions the PCs to go and find that palantir. It's quite a tour-de-force, actually, with the PCs running around just about every notable location in northwestern Middle-earth. I don't think it's all that great in some respects, but it does have some ideas that could be used.

 

[Agback]

No time for a details response atm unfortunately, but I do have a quick question - does anyone know if there's actually a reference to 'magic' being used by anyone to directly harm a living creature in Tolkien's Middle Earth (movies or otherwise)?

Do you count the mind-control spells that Grima cast on Theoden? The powerful spell by which Luthien enchanted Morgoth and his court? The curse that Isildur laid on the men of Erech?

What about the fires with which Gandalf burned wolves in The Hobbit and while the Fellowship was marching south through Eriador?

Most 'magic' in Middle-Earth represents the crafts of the Elves and Numenoreans, which consist basically of doing things really, really well. Elvish swords, rope, boats, waybread, camouflage gear, &c., and Numenorean fortification walls are fantastically good, almost perfect, swords, rope, boats, hard biscuit, battledress, and masonry. But they aren't more. And they are made by smiths, ropers, boatwrights, bakers, gardeners, and masons, not by spellcasters. Similarly, elvish lullabies are fantastically good at putting people to sleep, elvish lyric and epic singing is fantastically good at evoking its subject (it produces what we might term mental illusions), and Saruman's arguments are fantastically good at swaying people to the courses he espouses. This 'magic' (which the elves in Lorien tell Sam they don't consider to be magic) requires absolute mastery of the underlying craft, consists wholly of mastery of the underlying craft.

Somewhere above this is the creative power of the Valar, the maiar, and such extraordinary people as Fëanor, Telchar, Celebrimbor, and possibly Galadriel. Notable, such feats as growing the Two Trees, making the Silmarils, the palantirs, the Great Ring, and possibly making Frodo's luminous glass and Galadriel's garden, were not repeatable, even by the people who had done them originally. This may be because they had to invest a portion of their native power (experience points?) in the creations. I believe that Gandalf's fire magics are in this class, and possibly Saruman's and Grima's persuasive spells.

Then there are 'the deceits of the Enemy'.

Regards,


Agback

 

[ruleslawyer]

Most 'magic' in Middle-Earth represents the crafts of the Elves and Numenoreans, which consist basically of doing things really, really well. Elvish swords, rope, boats, waybread, camouflage gear, &c., and Numenorean fortification walls are fantastically good, almost perfect, swords, rope, boats, hard biscuit, battledress, and masonry. But they aren't more.

Well, sorta. It's rather hard to imagine how steel blades would last more than eight thousand years, or glow when a specific species comes within a certain range, through mere "perfect" craftsmanship without the aid of magic.

The point is instructive for DMs seeking to capture the flavor of Middle-Earth, though. "Magic" does tend to be bound up with a number of pervasive and complex means of exercising power: Craftsmanship, cunning, technology, language, and song, to name a few. That doesn't render the supernatural any less relevant to Middle-Earth, though: It just provides a richer set of metaphors than "spellcasting" to describe the creation of great works, the bending of wills, and the wielding of might. A subtler magic system would capture this nicely, as would granting item creation feats only to characters with extremely high ranks in the appropriate Craft skills.

 

[demiurge1138]

I don't know if it's been suggested, but a potential campaign idea is...

Where did all the dwarves go? Of course, there's a small colony in the Glittering Caves, but where are the rest of them? Maybe King Elessar commissions the party to track down Gloin, Gimli's father, to see Gimli off before he leaves for the Gray Havens. But, since the dwarves have sequestered themselves deep underground, it'll be a long and dangerous trip to find him.

Demiurge out.

 

[Agback]

Well, sorta. It's rather hard to imagine how steel blades would last more than eight thousand years, or glow when a specific species comes within a certain range, through mere "perfect" craftsmanship without the aid of magic.

Indeed. It isn't realistic, nor meant to be. The point is that in Middle Earth there is nothing 'mere' about perfect craftsmanship. Nor is there (apart from the deceits of the Enemy) any 'magic' to lend aid to craftsmanship. Middle Earth is a fantasy setting in which fantastically good artisans make fantastically good handicrafts.

When Pippin asks whether the elven cloaks are magical, the elf he is talking to can't even make out what he means. Galadriel has a better idea, but still thinks that lumping her magic and the magic that Morgoth teaches into the same category makes the category meaningless. And I humbly suggest that you will never capture the spirit of Middle Earth if your game mechanics make her statement wrong.

I would suggest that the best way to represent much of Middle-Earth magic would be to make the creation of magic items like Sting and the elven-cloaks a class ability of epic-level Experts, or something like that.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Where did all the dwarves go? Of course, there's a small colony in the Glittering Caves, but where are the rest of them?

Did the dwarves all go somewhere? I thought they still had workings in the Ered Luin and Erebor (and possibly in the Iron Hills). Appendix A says "After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the dwarf-folk of Erebor." I always presumed that teh rest of the dwarf-folk of Erebor stayed under Erebor.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Steverooo]

No time for a details response atm unfortunately, but I do have a quick question - does anyone know if there's actually a reference to 'magic' being used by anyone to directly harm a living creature in Tolkien's Middle Earth (movies or otherwise)?

"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor." TT:16.

Indirect? Maybe... And while the "blasting fire" was apparently gunpowder, in the movies, it could also have been magic, in the books:

"Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping Stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.
'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fires of Orthanc beneath our feet. Elendil! Elendil!'" TT:147.

"'But the Orcs have brought a deviltry from Orthanc,' said Aragorn. 'They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall. If they cannot come in the caves, they may seal up those that are inside. But now we must turn all our thoughts to our own defence.'" TT:149.

"There was a roar and a blast of fire. The archway of the gate above which he had stood a moment before crumbled and crashed in smoke and dust. The barricade was scattered as if by a thunderbolt. Aragorn ran to the king's tower." TT:151.

Saruman's abilities:

"'What's the danger?' asked Pippin. Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?'
'The last is more likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,' said Gandalf. 'But there is no telling what he can do, or may choose to try. A wild beast cornered is not safe to approach. And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!'" TT:189.

Spells of ruin laid upon Grond:

"Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old." RotK:104.

And the Lord of the Nazgul at the gates:

"Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.
Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if striken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground." RotK:105.

"And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade." RotK:106.

"King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, he had many weapons. He left the gate and vanished." RotK:117.

And his come-uppance:

"Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." RotK:123.

Draw your own conclusions...