DnD system grit

[On Puget Sound]

Have you looked at playing 4E in DarkSun? It has a lot of the flavor you seem to want. Iron Heroes is another system/setting that is very sword-and-sandals, though it is basically 3E in structure.

It's also perfectly fine to remove elements of 4e (or any system) that you don't like. No sunrods (or sunrods with radius 5 instead of 20), no Common tongue, only recover 1 surge per extended rest, or even no Arcane power source for players (in DarkSun Divine does not exist and Arcane is illegal).

 

[Randomthoughts]

Completely agree with Puget Sound here. I get the sense from the OP that 4e Dark Sun wouldn't precisely meet all of his objectives but it could be tweaked to get you there (or close enough). For example:

* Healing surges and extended rests: The amount of surges regained could be limited (per Puget Sound) but also so could the circumstances in which they are regained. To avoid the 15 min work day, you can limit that an Extended Rest is only gained at certain parts of the adventure (and therefore not at the discretion of PCs) or in certain places like a safe haven (and not out in the wild or in a dungeon). Another house rule I'm considering are long term "wounds" which uses 4e's disease mechanic and would limit the max # of surges regained and spent, and perhaps debuff current attack/damage/skill checks.

* Lethality: 4e could be quite lethal if encounters are designed well and the GM uses monsters effectively. So I don't agree that PCs aren't placed at risk in combat, even when fully loaded and rested. If you're referring to premade adventures, then yeah, I would agree that they aren't as challenging as customized encounters (and could be a bit grindy). Dark Sun creatures in particular are pretty lethal and it's not like you can't add more monsters or traps.

* Power level: Admittedly, 4e PCs have a lot of things they can do. If this is a concern, I'd avoid the fiddly bits that give them even more abilities like themes and backgrounds. If OTOH you are concerned about the AEDU power structure, you can limit classes to only Essential variants.

* Survival: DS 4e uses an abstract concept called "survival days". You might like it or not, but it's easy to break them down into its component parts (water, food, etc.) for a more intense resource management feel. In my game, I hand out chits and players track survival days that way...and they get very nervous when they are taken away day after day and in response to failed Endurance rolls or skill challenges. DS also has a mechanic where Athas "attacks" each PC which could result in a disease called sun sickness.

* Light: I personally make lighting an issue when I want it to be, but the RAW are there. If you want to make them track each and every torch and impose the encumbrance rules, you can. You can also limit the availability of certain spells and rituals (like light) to get the desired effect. Dark Sun already imposes restrictions on certain rituals (like ones where you can create water or food, for obvious reasons).

* Traps and Environment: The Dark Sun Creature Catalog describes a variety of traps and environmental hazards you may find helpful. But the main mechanic I use to reflect environmental risks (like travelling through the desert plains of Athas) are skill challenges. You can design these to be as lethal as you want them to be (and coupled with how you regulate extended rests and surges, they can really become quite lethal).

* Gear: I'm not sure if gear in and of itself is a concern for you (or whether it's more how powerful PCs could be). But if you want to minimize the need for gear found in other D&D settings, you can use Inherent Bonuses. I use these and go a step further: the gear that PCs receive is abstracted - they may get the ability but it's not from an actual object. There are items called boons that accomplish the same thing. This way, PCs aren't carrying around a christmas tree that other settings have.

I've played Runequest (the original) and Runequest II a bit (and will obtain Legends as well). RQII may have the gritty feel you are looking for but IMO it's not due to resource management mechanics in which case 4e DS is pretty good.

I'd be interested in hearing what you decide.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I would recommend WFRP either 1st or 2nd edition.

 

[Glade Riven]

For 3.5, I would recommend the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide. Healing and Resurrection are very limited, and there are a number of other elements that lead to a gritty, brutal world. And if you don't like IK guns and Mechanika, don't use them.

 

[ComradeGnull]

I want to second two that have been mentioned:

-First, 4e Dark Sun definitely has some of the elements you are looking for. The setting is thematically quite different from standard dungeon crawling, but the survival/grittiness is definitely there. The concept of buying 'survival days' as equipment- an abstract collection of water, rations, and protection from the sun's glare- allows for some fun survival-style RP without turning it into the extended exercise in accounting that people have mentioned. If you're realistic about allowing extended rest, that pushes it further towards realism and grittiness, and also makes things like losing healing surges a more significant threat.

-WFRP 1e/2e, though I would recommend 2e just because the old 1e stuff is harder to find and has a few mechanical bugs that were fixed in 2e. WFRP is a game where every single combat could be the one that sees your character permanently disabled, decapitated, driven insane, or all three. Travel in the Old World is very dangerous on its own- the 2e core book's introduction adventure is primarily about a group of refugees trying to walk from their village to a nearby city, but a creative DM can make it into an absolute nightmare. Magic is rare and feared, healing is hard to come by (visiting a doctor could result in your bleeding to death or, again, being driven insane) and potential sources of danger are everywhere in urban and rural environments.

Thirdly, you might think about playing PF or 3e using the E6 rules and adding some of the low-magic variations from the old Unearthed Arcana. Using E6 puts a cap on how powerful the players can be and their ability to avoid mundane danger using magic or giant HP pools. Low-magic makes healing harder to come by and reigns in the PC power level. This also means classic opposition (like orcs, ogres, and trolls) stays threatening to PCs for longer.

Harn is another option for super gritty gaming. Very low magic, very classically medieval. When you get hit with a weapon or a trap, you don't lose some number of points- you acquire an injury that is individually tracked and healed based on the location of the hit and the severity, ranging from bumps and bruises to bleeding wounds to sprained/dislocated/broken limbs and permanent maiming. I've always seen it as requiring a lot of bookkeeping for everything, OTOH.

EDIT: Thought of another one- use E6 PF/3e in the Dragonlance Age of Despair setting. No clerics, no paladins, no magical healing, low character levels, little central organization and government... there is old 3e information for running this setting in the books that Margaret Weis' company published during their 3e days.

 

[Gronin]

I would echo what a few people here have said -- Dark Sun is about as gritty as it gets if you want to stick with 4th Edition (at least without a lot of house rules)

As far as a something a bit different you might want to hae a look at Mike Mearls "Iron Heroes". This is a system that has thrown magic out the window as far as items and spellcasters. I played it a bit when it first came out and enjoyed it although my players were not as excited as I and so we moved on.

 

[TerraDave]

There are a few issues.

As noted, there are several other games, including old school D&D and clones, Runequest, and WHFRP that may be closer to what you want. There are also other D20 games like Conan and the excellent Grim Tales.

On the other hand, I have done lots of 3E and 4E with certain elements of "old school style", and on that basis:

If the issue is just dungeon delving, you can certainly do that in 3E or 4E. If it is delving with traditional D&D isms, again you can do that in 3E or 4E.

If you want resource management, 3E and 4E have that. You can even track rations, amo, components, etc, if you want, though many groups probably don't.

If you want to terrorize the players, again you can do that. In 3E, its pretty easy, but swingy. In 4E, its a little harder, and time consuming, if you are talking about a fight. 4E is a bad edition to just kill charecters for the sake of doing so, but 4E remains the best edition in terms of calibrating how tough you want a fight to be.

If you want environmental challenges, again, 3E or 4E have it. I like that in 4E, things like exposure can lead to loss of surges. And in some cases there may be fewer spells/rituals to ameliorate these challenges. On the other hand, 4E may also involve some kind of skill challenge. On this I am more indifferent.

You can certainly do traps or puzzles in 3E or 4E. There are conversions of Tomb of Horrors for each...and 4E also has a sequel to it (with the same name). These are also good examples of giving alternatives to combat encounters in the dungeon and really bringing exploration to the fore.

This also points out one deep flaw with early 4E: its attempt at making everything about combat, including traps. Traps in combats are fine, but only combats get awfully boring and are ironically uncinematic (you would be surprised at how little time is spent fighting in action films). Its called pacing, and default 4E could be pretty terrible at it, though latter adventures do a much better job.

Any ways, to get to a point: what is your goal? If it is to keep some elements of 3E or 4E but to put more emphasis on exploration and dungeon and wilderness non-combat tactics and danger, you can certainly do that. If that is your goal.

 

[Layander]

Have you looked at 4e tomb of horrors? On the first page it states that it is nothing like the original and no where near as hard. It makes that clear.

 

[Jhaelen]

Have you looked at 4e tomb of horrors? On the first page it states that it is nothing like the original and no where near as hard. It makes that clear.

And your point is?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Have you looked at 4e tomb of horrors? On the first page it states that it is nothing like the original and no where near as hard. It makes that clear.

Double the XP budget of all encounters. DMs can, and should, scale encounters for their own campaigns.