Do armies in your campaign go around raping, pillaging, and plundering?

[Psion]

I think its a mistake to base the likely outcome by any single period in history. Fantasy setting have a wide variety of conditions that did not exist IRL, and to assume that all such settings will follow the course of medieval history would be folly.

A historical counterexample that sticks out in my mind was that of Mao in China. The armies of the nationalist party in China were notorious for engaging in the precise form of abusive behavior that has already been described in this thread.

One of the instrumental methods by which Mao gained the faith of the populace was by the rules of discipline he enforced in his armies.

Mao set out "The Three Main Rules of Discipline" and "The Eight Points for Attention." Failure to adhere to these could and did result in execution for the offenders.

The Three Main Rules of Discipline:

1. Obey orders in all your actions.
2. Do not take a single needle or piece of thread from the masses.
3. Turn in everything captured.

The Eight Points for Attention:

1. Speak politely.
2. Pay fairly for what you buy.
3. Return everything you borrow.
4. Pay for what you damage.
5. Do not hit or swear at people.
6. Do not damage crops.
7. Do not take liberties with women.
8. Do not ill-treat captives.

This combined with the Nationist's policy of beheading captured troops and destruction and theft of civilian property caused the peasants to look to Mao as the protector of the masses.

Now, in the context of D&D, this sounds like precisely the sort of code that a LG nation would enforce.

 

[Scarbonac]

IMC, the larger number of the commanders of most civilized armies are repulsed by the baser drives of the "beasts" (i.e., the common rabble soldiery) under them. However, most of them "lie back and think of the Empire" -- so to speak -- in the field when it comes to pillaging, looting and rape, as they see it as one of the inevitablities of warfare.

The commanders of armies belonging to nations which consider themselves "Good" will tell their troop leaders (of the raping, looting, pillaging troops, after the rampage is nearly over): "Hang seven tonight; hang 3 tomorrow morning. The next day, hang any that remain within the city."

My thanks to Sharpe's Company for that.

 

[Dogbrain]

Although there might be significant magical help in D&D worlds, even a lot of wizards and sorcerors using all their spells on Teleport to bring in food wouldn't make much difference if you're talking about armies of tens of thousands. But I don't recall reading in any campaign material about this nasty aspect of war. Do armies in your world pillage and plunder wherever they go? If not, what supports them?

First, I am of the opinion that very large, mostly infantry, armies would probably be the dominant military force. I have read enough history to see that the elimination of conventional infantry was predicted over and over. First, the breechloading rifles was to eliminate infantry. Then it was the repeating rifle (machinegun). Then tanks were to eliminate infantry. Then it was aircraft. Then, in the '70s, the "experts" were claiming that a whole bunch of gee-whiz remote control doodads would eliminate infantry.

Here we are in the 21s century, and there is still no substitute for Joe, Tommy, Fritz, and all the other poor dogfaces to be found the world around. New technologies get neutralized by other new technologies or new tactics. I'd say that the same is probably true for D&D settings. Yes, there is battlefield magic, but that's what the other guy's battle magicians are there to neutralize. In the end, it's grunt against grunt--a nasty, unpleasant, unhappy business.

Likewise, when we look at how "good" or "evil" armies operate, we should be conscious of how unusual our sensibilities are in the broader scope of human history. Armies and leaders that we are taught were "good" considered it no burden on their consciences if they were to put a city to the sword--men, women, and children--and completely sack it if that city held out for more than X time in a siege. If they had not wanted to be slaughtered all, they would have surrendered and given up the "lawful plunder". That was part of the conventions of war in medieval Europe. So, one has to decide that either "good" and "evil" might be culturally conditioned or that all the leaders of medieval Europe (including those used as models for fantasy) were actually quite evil, with no exceptions. Of course, this raises the question of whether ANY political leader can avoid being evil or at the very least doing evil. One Italian political philosopher probably would have answered "not if he wants to remain a leader".

As for ordinary plunder and pillage, as late as the American Revolution, common soldiers would protest if an officer restrained them from pillaging. British forces would plunder the rebels. Patriot forces would plunder the tories. Murder of non-combatants was an acceptable tactic in the western theater of that war. The British recruited Indians. The Americans recruited rangers. They both used the same tactics. So, does that mean two "evil" nations were at war against each other?

In my own campaign, there is no thought given by the clergy of the various nations. Of COURSE their cause is good, their enemies are evil, and they deserve to take what they need when on foreign soul. Mind you, the "good" of the ale-swigging, cattle-raiding, bearded axe-swingers with horse-riding nobility is probably different from the "good" of the wine-chugging, athelete-sponsoring, clean-shaven spear-thrusters with charioteering nobility...

 

[Dogbrain]

Personally, with the exception of drow, I can't see elves raping anyone. Considering how much elves value life

In my own campaign, elves would never "rape" for the following reasons:

Other elves: Bad juju. She who Tears the Testicles will come and eat your gonads in your dreams--and it's not just a story, it happens.

Non-elves: What a PERVERT! Humans? That's as bad as bedding a monkey, a gorilla, or some other inferior primate.

 

[Tonguez]

As for ordinary plunder and pillage, as late as the American Revolution, common soldiers would protest if an officer restrained them from pillaging. British forces would plunder the rebels. Patriot forces would plunder the tories. Murder of non-combatants was an acceptable tactic in the western theater of that war. The British recruited Indians. The Americans recruited rangers. They both used the same tactics. So, does that mean two "evil" nations were at war against each other?

Nope they were two neutral nations trying to find a balance between defeat and victory

Also I personally don't think that mass infantry would be the stock in DnD warfare. Instead small scale elite skirmish forces (aka parties of adventurers) will be the dominant force

Mass infantry is defeated by light cavalry in most cases - mobility is they key. Of course in DnD a Barbarian can move almost as fast as a horse (50ft) so a Barbarian becomes essentially heavy infantry with the mobility of light cavalry

Then of course if you add in say a Storm giant or a couple of dragons then your whole battlefield changes and with a morale mechanic in place - mass troops are meat...

 

[MarauderX]

Only the bad guys, when they are feeling really, really nasty. And some frustrated barbarians once in a while. As a whole, the critter races leave the more populous human cities alone IMC, unless they want their @$$es beat by a slew of adventuring paladins.

 

[MarauderX]

Only the bad guys, when they are feeling really, really nasty. And some frustrated barbarians once in a while. As a whole, the critter races leave the more populous human cities alone IMC, unless they want their @$$es beat by a slew of adventuring paladins.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Keep in mind that armies would be pretty small, only a few thousand, because after that even stripping the land of food starts to become inadequate.
Although there might be significant magical help in D&D worlds, even a lot of wizards and sorcerors using all their spells on Teleport to bring in food wouldn't make much difference if you're talking about armies of tens of thousands. But I don't recall reading in any campaign material about this nasty aspect of war. Do armies in your world pillage and plunder wherever they go? If not, what supports them?

Depends on the nation. On krynn (the basis for my current game) Solamnia has supply lines consisting of a number of fortified cities charged with maintaining certain quantities of supplies. The net result is that for any war lasting less than two years and with a reasonably secure rear area, the Solamnic army will not create a famine in the surrounding areas.
They will, however, strip most areas of weapons and 'excess' food & supplies. They will pay, but with letters of credit. Should the newly claimed city return to enemy hands they will see no coin, giving the locals a fiscal incentive to remain part of solamnia, at least long enough to get paid.

My goblinoid-run Dargaard will gleefully plunder, pillage, and destroy foreign territories. They are militaristic, tho', and limit their destructive urges to non-fortified areas. I've never seen goblinoids as having rapine trendencies, I leave that to orcs, which are light on the ground on Krynn.

Orcish forces, typically small tribes, can ocassionally be bribed with loot but will usually return unless fought off. (e.g. the danes and the danegeld) Orcs are brutal, primal creatures and I treat them as having all the worst aspects & stereotypes of the American Indians and virtually nothing redeeming. They take bits of victims as trophies, rape and enslave the women, torture the men, burn crops and structures, are alchoholic and weapon addicted megaviolent barbarians.

The draconian forces are a bit of a hybrid. They won't pillage a city that surrenders and incorporates them into their supply lines. They won't hesitate to drain a city dry if it affects their battle plans but otherwise avoid it, preferring to think in the long-term. Resist and once the city falls they will make a point of engaging in systematic slaughter of all high officials and immediate family members, mutilation of all officials distant family, gelding one male in four, and having the first born male and female child of every family turned into living trail rations for the army. They also say this upfront so there's no confusion or surprise.

But I read a lot of military fiction (The General series is a *really* good flavor reference for GMs) and like to keep war brutal so players will try to prevent it.

 

[Nifft]

IMC, Good armies meet on the field of battle, and civilians aren't involved.

Evil armies pillage, kill, etc. -- and there are some races IMC that cannot reproduce without unwilling hosts, so rape is the norm for Goblinoid, Gnoll and Minotaur forces.

When Good forces fight on Evil lands, the Evil ones are put to the sword -- every last one. There's no such thing as an innocent demon-larva, and there's no such thing as an innocent Goblinoid (again, IMC).

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Ack! Evil armies have pillaged my post!

-- N