Do brawlers get their feature bonuses with grabbing weapons?

[DracoSuave]

That was precisely my original though, but the compendium says spiked gauntlets can only take hands-slot enchantments (which aren't that hot).

They may be enchanted like any weapon, but unlike other weapons, they occupy your hand slot. (AV)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Right, you can put weapon enchantments on Spiked Gauntlets, and since Grappling Strike has the weapon keyword they will add an enhancement bonus. Quite effective. The enchantments you can use are limited however to those for 'any weapon' (or theoretically 'unarmed' group weapons, but I don't think there are any in that category). The Talid is pretty similar, except for not occupying the hands slot, which does make it a better choice if your DM will allow it or you are in DS.

As DracoSuave says, using a weapon and shield with Brawler style doesn't make that much sense. Using a spiked shield, yeah, that will work. Put a Rhythm Blade enchantment on it for more fun.

 

[Ferghis]

Grappling Strike does have the weapon keyword.
When it speaks of grab attacks, it means the Grab standard action (Str vs Reflex no weapon mods, no damage, target is immobilized, sustain minor)

I totally misread the at-will. Thanks for clearing that up.

They may be enchanted like any weapon, but unlike other weapons, they occupy your hand slot. (AV)

And thanks for clearing that up.

Right, you can put weapon enchantments on Spiked Gauntlets, and since Grappling Strike has the weapon keyword they will add an enhancement bonus. Quite effective. The enchantments you can use are limited however to those for 'any weapon' (or theoretically 'unarmed' group weapons, but I don't think there are any in that category). The Talid is pretty similar, except for not occupying the hands slot, which does make it a better choice if your DM will allow it or you are in DS.

As DracoSuave says, using a weapon and shield with Brawler style doesn't make that much sense. Using a spiked shield, yeah, that will work. Put a Rhythm Blade enchantment on it for more fun.

Rhythm Blade is a nice touch! I wonder if it adds to my fort thanks to that brawler must-have feat...

Spiked shield would be awesome, but I want a bigger defensive bonus, and the build is extremely feat-starved, like most fighter builds, so I'm not sure the superior weapon feat would be worth it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, you'd have to go through all the bonuses too and see exactly what does and doesn't stack.

 

[Unwise]

When I read "off hand is free or grabbing a creature" I would say that no, you can't use that bonus when using the sash.

Is your off hand free? - no
Is your off hand grabbing a creature? - no, the sash is grabbing them, your off-hand is not.

 

[Ferghis]

When I read "off hand is free or grabbing a creature" I would say that no, you can't use that bonus when using the sash.

Is your off hand free? - no
Is your off hand grabbing a creature? - no, the sash is grabbing them, your off-hand is not.

I didn't make myself clear. I'll add the word either to clarify where I separate the clauses. The reading I was pushing for was:
While EITHER
- you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free
OR
- grabbing a creature
you gain a +1 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Fortitude.

So the analysis you propose would be
Are you wielding a weapon in your primary hand while your off hand is free? No.
Are you grabbing a creature? Yes.
Since you answered yes to one of the alternatives, you get the benefit.

 

[Unwise]

So the analysis you propose would be
Are you wielding a weapon in your primary hand while your off hand is free? No.
Are you grabbing a creature? Yes.
Since you answered yes to one of the alternatives, you get the benefit.

Certainly, if you take it as given that you can ignore the words "off-hand" as they relate to the grab requirement. I can't really see that as a natural reading of the passage quoted though.

I would say that it has to be your off-hand that is doing the grabbing, therefore, grappling with the sash would not meet that requirement.

<edit> If I were writing it and wanted it to read the way your propose I would have written "While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free or YOU ARE grabbing a creature..." otherwise it just does not read as good english to me. Maybe it is different in different areas of the world. Otherwise it seems to me the grammatical 'object' that is grabbing is 'your off-hand' not 'you'.

 

[DracoSuave]

I would say requiring your off-hand do the grabbing is nonsensical under the rules. You are either grabbing or you are not. A grab does not prevent you from being able to use your weapon, even if that weapon was the one used in the original power that grabs.

Moreover, if you look at the powers for a brawler that grab, not a single one uses the off-hand to grab. They all are weapon powers that simply grab the target. Thusly, they cannot be distinguished as 'off-handed' grabs, the Weapon keyword makes it clear it's the main hand weapon doing the grabbing.

On top of this, by the definition of 'hand free' if your hand is free, and you then grab someone, your hand is still free technically. You must have a hand free to grab one creature, and you must have two hands free to grab two creatures (obviously specific weapons that have grabbing powers are exceptions to this) But in neither of those cases does your hand become 'unfree'.

It's clear tby the rules that if you are grabbing, you must have had a free hand to do it. You cannot grab if your hand is not free, and there's no such thing as 'off-handed grab'. If there is, please show us the power that uses this concept.

 

[Ferghis]

It's clear tby the rules that if you are grabbing, you must have had a free hand to do it.

My original concern when I started this thread was the similarity to the swordmage rules requiring a free off-hand. The swordmage ward feature specifically states that you cannot have a weapon of any kind in the off-hand, and I think that even an "unarmed" weapon would deny their benefit. That's why I was concerned that wearing a spiked gauntlet would deny the brawler benefit.

This concern of mine has been considerably alleviated when it was pointed out to me that grappling strike actually contains the weapon keyword. If this is the case, I feel spiked gauntlets (and their ilk) should be allowed to benefit brawlers.

 

[Ferghis]

<edit> If I were writing it and wanted it to read the way your propose I would have written "While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free or YOU ARE grabbing a creature..." otherwise it just does not read as good english to me. Maybe it is different in different areas of the world. Otherwise it seems to me the grammatical 'object' that is grabbing is 'your off-hand' not 'you'.

"While grabbing a creature you gain a +1 bonus to AC ..." is a perfectly grammatical sentence in English. The gerund indicates an ongoing state, and "while" indicates a conditional clause.