Do brawlers get their feature bonuses with grabbing weapons?

[Argyle King]

To answer the OP:


Let's say you have a weapon in each hand. Let's also say the weapon in one of your hands has a special ability which allows you to grab with it.

I believe you would get your brawler bonuses when grabbing via that weapon.

 

[Ferghis]

Why not just fight with both hands empty and enchant your fists?

It appears to work.

Unarmed Strikes are defined as a weapon; it appears both in the weapon list and is further explained to work with [W] (weapon) attacks in PHB1 as well as being further clarified as part of the Unarmed group in AV1. There are enchantments which can apply to 'any' weapon.

Monk Unarmed Strikes cannot be enchanted, but that (IMO) is a case of specific beating general.

So, as far as I can tell there is an Unarmed Weapon Group which contains Unarmed Strikes, Monk Unarmed Strikes (which have a special rule stating they can't be enchanted,) and a few other things which have been added along the way.


note: I do not have DDi, so, if this has been clarified to work differently, I'm not aware of that.

Well, the non-monk unarmed strike has no proficiency bonus and d4 damage, which puts it at a severe disadvantage compared to, well, anything else.

Also, I really don't think a non-monk's hands can be enchanted. I'd give my youngest sister if the brawler could get access to the monk's unarmed strike.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Why not just fight with both hands empty and enchant your fists?

It appears to work.

Unarmed Strikes are defined as a weapon; it appears both in the weapon list and is further explained to work with [W] (weapon) attacks in PHB1 as well as being further clarified as part of the Unarmed group in AV1. There are enchantments which can apply to 'any' weapon.

Monk Unarmed Strikes cannot be enchanted, but that (IMO) is a case of specific beating general.

So, as far as I can tell there is an Unarmed Weapon Group which contains Unarmed Strikes, Monk Unarmed Strikes (which have a special rule stating they can't be enchanted,) and a few other things which have been added along the way.


note: I do not have DDi, so, if this has been clarified to work differently, I'm not aware of that.

"Unarmed Strike" however is not an OBJECT. It is a class of weapon, but there is no physical thing which can be enchanted because you don't use any specific instance of a weapon to make this kind of attack. It could be a kick, a headbutt, a pummel strike, a punch, etc. You don't have to have any particular hand free (or any hand at all) for example in order to make an unarmed attack. It would equally make as much sense to say you're enchanting your improvised weapon attack. Since enchantment requires an object to enchant it just won't work. The 'no enchantment' rule under the monk version is really extraneous text which is just pointing out the existence of a lack of ability to do that within the rules, not creating a specific exception to anything.

That being said... One might suppose that if you use inherent bonuses then unarmed attacks would get an inherent enchantment bonus. I'm not sure how that works not having used this rule myself. At that point perhaps the monk specific rule would prevent inherent bonus from applying to their attacks, which makes sense since they have their own built-in bonuses. It might or might not apply for other classes.

 

[Argyle King]

Well, the non-monk unarmed strike has no proficiency bonus and d4 damage, which puts it at a severe disadvantage compared to, well, anything else.

Also, I really don't think a non-monk's hands can be enchanted. I'd give my youngest sister if the brawler could get access to the monk's unarmed strike.

Actually, the Brawler fight does gain a proficiency bonus with unarmed attacks. Also, there's no reason why you can't choose an Expertise feat and choose unarmed strikes as your weapon. That helps take care of the proficiency bonus.

Damage is a little tougher to make up for, but it's not impossible. The Brutal Brawler feat changes your damage to d6 instead of d4. Weapon Focus and other such feats can apply to unarmed attacks. There are also feats which allow you to cause damage when a creature fails to escape your grab; I believe there's also one which causes damage even when you fail a grab. The nice thing about this is that there's no attack roll, so you can't miss with the auto damage. Sure, it might not be a lot of damage, but it's constant.

You can still attack while you have someone grabbed, so I imagine you could manage ok damage with a ground & pound tactic against opponents. They're taking damage from your grab while also continuing to take damage from you punching them into submission. I wouldn't claim it was optimized by any means, but I think it's pretty cool, and it doesn't seem to be gimped too terribly. You just need to use different tactics to get the best mileage out of it.

I'll also add that none of this is taking into consideration any stances or other such things you might have which also deal damage. There are a few things you can pick up via Multiclassing which match up well too. I'm away from my books at the moment, but I believe there's a barbarian feat which allows you to throw offhand weapons 5 squares; unarmed strikes count as being offhand.

Without MCing, I believe there's a PP in Martial Power 1 which increases the damage dice of offhand weapons you wield by one step. If they were already d6 from Brutal Brawler, they would become d8, right?

 

[DracoSuave]

Or you can enchant your spiked gauntlets and call it a day.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or you can enchant your spiked gauntlets and call it a day.

Awe, you took the words right out of my mouth...

Besides, if you can attack while grabbing someone, then you might as well use a big beatstick. By all means optimize the grab, but use a bastard sword or a war axe or something in your main hand.

 

[DracoSuave]

Awe, you took the words right out of my mouth...

Besides, if you can attack while grabbing someone, then you might as well use a big beatstick. By all means optimize the grab, but use a bastard sword or a war axe or something in your main hand.

That depends on your defending strategy. I kinda like the idea of going full on Spiked Gauntlets, that way you can grab two opponents at once.

But it's entirely up to the player, obviously. The builds pretty much are versatile weapon and free hand vs full on spiked gauntlets, the difference being how much grabbing you can do.

 

[Argyle King]

Or you can enchant your spiked gauntlets and call it a day.

You could, but the proficiency bonus for the Brawler Fighter's unarmed strikes increases at higher levels. After a certain point, you'd be more accurate without the gauntlets.

 

[DracoSuave]

You could, but the proficiency bonus for the Brawler Fighter's unarmed strikes increases at higher levels. After a certain point, you'd be more accurate without the gauntlets.

At level 11, proficiency bonus for unarmed strikes is +4. Proficiency bonus for gauntlets is +2, and enhancement bonus is +2 or greater.

At level 21, it's +6 vs +2+4 or greater.

Unarmed attacks don't get enhancement bonuses without a ki focus involved.

Tho, that is an idea as well.

 

[Argyle King]

At level 11, proficiency bonus for unarmed strikes is +4. Proficiency bonus for gauntlets is +2, and enhancement bonus is +2 or greater.

At level 21, it's +6 vs +2+4 or greater.

Unarmed attacks don't get enhancement bonuses without a ki focus involved.

Tho, that is an idea as well.

Currently, I tend to believe Unarmed Strikes can be enchanted. 4E seems to treat Monk Unarmed Strikes as being a different weapon in the Unarmed category. Looking through the books I have, all of the monk feats, options, and etc seem to specifically over and over again use the same language.

As the Brawler's unarmed feature is a different weapon without that special rule and language limiting it, I'm leaning toward believing enchanting yourself is possible. While I'm aware this is probably counter to what many players of 4E are inclined to believe; if it works, that means you get the enhancement bonus and the extra proficiency bonus.

The main down side being that you could also be disenchanted and turned into dust.