Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?

[Dannyalcatraz]

How about an open-topped armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle? How about unarmored trucks, jeeps, universal carriers, motorcycles, bicycles, horses? I'm talking about the Second World War, in units for which flying hostiles were a lot more than a "possibility".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you just listed there is considerably more mobile and harder to hit than a castle.

They're not enormous sitting ducks. They're mobile. They're small.

IOW, they're still useful.

In real life, the "standard RW castle" was equipped with hoardings for the ramparts. In real life, the courtyard got plenty of use during the vast majority of time when the castle was not under attack -- and did not make the fortifications around it any less useful in time of need. In real life, those fortresses had roofs, and their walls were pierced with shooting ports.

Wooden hoardings would be useless against a 200lb rock dropped by a swooping dragon, and might be a deathtrap if Flaming Sphere'd, Fireballed or DBFed, or if a Fire Elemental shows up inside...

A courtyard and its contents are a tough target for a land-based seige engine- its akin to shooting a basket in basketball. But for an airborne opponent dropping rocks (and other ordinance), they'd all be easy pickings. Proverbial fish in a barrel.

Versus a basically medieval army alone, or one accompanied by a few fantastic figures, a good old castle may do just fine.

Once one force sees the effectiveness of "special units" others will follow that lead. During WW2, both Allied and Axis forces occupied certain castles...mostly well away from the artillery and targets likely to be bombed (like factories or the main body of their forces, thanks to radio). This compartmentalization- coupled with air-forces on both sides of the battles- meant that the castles were at relatively low risk of direct attack.

Look at a "floating fortress"- an aircraft carrier. What happens to them when their planes are not airborne (for whatever reason)? They get sunk.

But in a typical fantasy world, the castle is both headquarters AND base of operations. IOW, a juicy target. Once the efficacy of an air force proves its worth, you're going to start to see the same kind of reaction as you saw in the real world- distribution of forces; trenches; bunkers.

Then consider that in most cases a castle actually serves in battle for a tiny fraction of its occupation -- if ever at all. In the meantime, it is a lord's home and court, a (or the) center of manorial society.

Consider that in a world full of air forces that we don't really reinforce any of our seats of power- a process that began as cannon and other artillery became dominant.

 

[Ariosto]

"Air raid!"
"Quick, everybody -- stand around in the courtyard!"

Sure, happens all the time in games I've played -- not!

Good luck dodging those high explosive loads, pal. I would rather take my chances with the rock.

Magic-users able to conjure fire elementals routinely join the army of every Baron So and So? Why? More to the point, why do you assume that is so in most, much less all, other campaigns?

Are there still wish spells in 3e? Deities and demigods? I mean, obviously, if all you can build is a 'useless' underground bunker guarded by iron golems, storm giants and titans then you may as well just not erect any defenses at all, eh?

Oh, yeah: How come, while you're pulling high-powered magic and monsters out of thin air left and right, you can't spare a bit of enchantment for the castle?

Oh, no -- can't let 'em have towers of adamant and orichalc, mortared with ichor and warded with runes, because ... that wouldn't make sense?!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Air raid!"
"Quick, everybody -- stand around in the courtyard!"

Sure, happens all the time in games I've played -- not!

Good luck dodging those high explosive loads, pal. I would rather take my chances with the rock.

Didn't say people were out in the courtyard. I said that targets like wells, stables and the like would be smashed to flinders by a few dropped boulders. All the dragon would have to do to destroy or block access to something like a well is dive and drop for a pinpoint shot- a man-sized rock falling at terminal velocity packs quite the wallop, and would be coming in at an angle that a RW medieval engineer wouldn't have accounted for. Or he could strafe and drop for a rolling cannonball effect. Interior walls being what they are, they're not going to stop a 200lb boulder skipping along at 100+ft/rd.

Much smaller cannonballs did as much.

Magic-users able to conjure fire elementals routinely join the army of every Baron So and So? Why? More to the point, why do you assume that is so in most, much less all, other campaigns?

Summon Monster 3 isn't exactly a rare & powerful spell, nor are Fireball, Flaming Sphere, Flame Arrow, etc. And those capable of casting them- or similar abilities- are not exactly rare either.

What about those cheap Wands of MM and those capable of using them?

In a world with the pervasiveness of magic of a typical D&D campaign, those going to war are going to spend the money to have special units- wizards, monsters, whatever, because if their foe has none, the battle is as good as won. And if their foe has some, and THEY none, the battle is as good as lost.

Flying is NOT a rare ability in the game. If you can't defend against flyers, you have a gaping hole in your defense.

Magical Fire is so common that most power-gamers assume they're going to encounter flame resistant/immune foes that they prep for that eventuality.

Are there still wish spells in 3e? Deities and demigods? I mean, obviously, if all you can build is a 'useless' underground bunker guarded by iron golems, storm giants and titans then you may as well just not erect any defenses at all, eh?

Oh, yeah: How come, while you're pulling high-powered magic and monsters out of thin air left and right, you can't spare a bit of enchantment for the castle?

Oh, no -- can't let 'em have towers of adamant and orichalc, mortared with ichor and warded with runes, because ... that wouldn't make sense?!

Show me some spells that would be moderately common, affordably cast, etc. that would protect large targets like castles from aerial assault. How many Wizards are going to want to cast enough Wish spells to protect a castle, given its cost?

And adamantine towers are going to be a LOT rarer and more expensive than simply building bunkers as opposed to a RW style castle.

Given a choice between bankrupting himself building an adamantine fortress and hiring 20th level mages to protect his castle from aerial assaults alone, and building bunker-style strong points, what rational ruler will opt for the former?

 

[S'mon]

I certainly think that the hoardings that were common IRL would be ubiquitous in a world of flying creatures and area-effect spells.

Huge flying creatures that can fly above a castle and drop rocks on it would certainly be nasty, but dropping rocks from a great height is not a precision attack*. IRL it was common enough that the besieger's trebuchets could drop rocks on the castle from out of range of the castle's defenses. And trebuchets don't need to eat like a dragon does. If they are destroyed, you just build more. Aerial superiority is another way to make the defender's lives unpleasant, but I have not experienced it as a game changer. The guys in the castle can stay hidden and if they have any offensive capability at all, they get to decide when and where to strike to take down the assailants when they least expect it.

Again, I have run dozens of AD&D-magic-level castle battles over the years, and big/flying monsters are not a major factor. Low level spells (Fly, Invisibility) plus high level PC or PC-type assault teams are consistently the biggest risk to the castle.

*And even IRL, wells and other important bits are well of sight - wells are found in the bowels of the Keep, not exposed in the courtyard! Mostly to prevent fouling of the water I suspect.

 

[Ariosto]

Summon Monster 3 isn't exactly a rare & powerful spell, nor are Fireball, Flaming Sphere, Flame Arrow, etc. And those capable of casting them- or similar abilities- are not exactly rare either.

In your campaign!

Gods, how bloody hard is that to understand?

See, in old D&D, conjure elemental is a 5th level spell. We'll just ignore the really major difficulty in the original rules. To cast it at all requires at least a 9th level (Sorcerer) magic-user. Those tend in my experience to be pretty rare, because lower-level m-us tend to die like flies (often enough at the hands of rival mages). Not that it matters much, seeing as how (per the 1E DMG) you can't recruit them as henchmen and they have little interest in being hirelings. A magic-user's effectiveness in combat is pretty well proportional to her or his ability either (a) to tell you to take your job and shove it; or (b) just to take whatever you have that it turns out he or she actually wants.

What about those cheap Wands of MM and those capable of using them?

35,000 gold pieces per such a wand is the 1E DMG default for buying loot from PCs. Buying from the one who buys from adventurers? Who knows? (The DM, but if you have to ask then it's not cheap.) Of course, the adventurers must find them first (1 in 400 magic treasures by default). To make one requires at least a 12th level Wizard. What is entailed is for the DM to decide. One thing is sure: recovery from the ordeal (however long it turns out to be) will require at least 40 days of complete rest in relative isolation.

Wizards are not typically in the habit of making magic items for other people's henchmen.

A first-level Prestidigitator to wield the wand? (A non-mage can use one, but must roll to hit.) By default, there's one seeking a patron per about 5,000 total population (so, up to 4,000 in 15th c. France) -- but it's really up to the DM what his or her world is like.

Anyway, 10.5 points of automatic hitting and up to 100 charges is certainly nothing to laugh at. Especially when your scar-faced henchman asks for a bigger cut of loot for "me and my little friend".

Given a choice between bankrupting himself building an adamantine fortress and hiring 20th level mages to protect his castle from aerial assaults alone, and building bunker-style strong points, what rational ruler will opt for the former?

As the 20th level mages are "unobtainium" in all the games I've played, and as bankrupting oneself supporting them would be no victory anyway, I reckon I would look into what's actually feasible.

There is absolutely no reason one cannot have a castle and a bunker! And 'dungeons', not just medieval style but D&D style. (That is, in fact, the solution that I have seen most often proven 'sensible' in play.)

Again, it seems to me rather odd that, with all the over-the-top-ness of your campaign, architects can't even get some magic rock. We want a rock! Yeah yeah yeah!

Not as odd, though, as the impregnability of your barrier against recognizing that magical worlds are not all stamped out in a factory from some Standard Pattern.

 

[Dausuul]

Not as odd, though, as the impregnability of your barrier against recognizing that magical worlds are not all stamped out in a factory from some Standard Pattern.

Dude, I agree with your arguments, but chill.

Castles will be useless, or use-impaired, only in a setting where both of the following are true:

• Powerful spellcasters are common.
• The spell list presented in the rulebooks is exhaustive (these are all the spells that exist) rather than representative (these are the spells that are generally useful for adventurers).

If the first is not true, then one cannot rely on having a high-level wizard available for offense or defense, and the army that does have such a wizard will use him or her with great care. Or, more accurately, the wizard will use him- or herself with great care, since high-level wizards are smart enough to make their own decisions and powerful enough that they don't have to take orders.

If the second is not true, then defensive magic can be used to counter offensive. A castle with layers of defensive wards built up over decades or centuries (or even millennia, considering the sort of time scale many fantasy settings operate on) could be a tough nut for even a high-level wizard to crack.

 

[Aeolius]

Show me some spells that would be moderately common, affordably cast, etc. that would protect large targets like castles from aerial assault.

You don't need spells. If the antagonist has access to flying mounts, there's a good chance that the lord/lady of the castle does also. They could afford to build a castle. The cost of raising a flock of hippogriffs or giant eagles would be trivial in comparison.

This happens in my game all the time. 3D movement underwater is a given. That being said, many undersea races have aquatic caverns and the like, that they can retreat to in times of need.

 

[Set]

If the second is not true, then defensive magic can be used to counter offensive. A castle with layers of defensive wards built up over decades or centuries (or even millennia, considering the sort of time scale many fantasy settings operate on) could be a tough nut for even a high-level wizard to crack.

Alchemy can also provide cheaper lower-magic options.

A salve that makes wood hard to ignite, suddenly those wooden hoardings aren't so useless. (Plus, the vast majority of fire spells and attacks don't actually *start fires,* so, barring the few that do, like burning hands, you might not even need to do more than splash some water on the wooden barriers to keep them wet when a seige has begun.)

An alchemical compound of stinging nettle and foul-smelling alkaline plants that, when burned, creates thick clouds of stinging smoke that rise into the air and inconvenience those flying attackers. Possible downside is that an untimely wind could bring some of those clouds drifting back down to inconvenience your defenders... Flyers find themselves blinding by watering eyes, possibly even risking suffocation, and, if alchemy is used, and not just burning foul crap, the smoke might be specially designed to only affect the sort of creature that is attacking, like 'Wyvern-Be-Gone.'

A solution combining blessed silver (or gold) and holy water worked into the mortar, preventing shadows, wraiths and spectres from passing incorporeally into the keep and slaughtering everyone.

The tanglefoot catapult / ballista ammo, mentioned upthread, used to bring down winged flyers. The ammo itself barely hurts them, but gravity kills. Giant harpoons, fired from ballita, or spiked nets, fired from catapults, can do similar things without the alchemy.

The roofs of buildings can be adorned with magical glyphs, sigils, runes, symbols, scripts, etc. that cause havoc on any flyer who can read them, while being completley harmless to the defenders below, since they'll never be able to look down at the roof and see the big permanant Symbol of Be Stunned for One Round and Forget How to Fly and Fall Down and Die.

If the local area has ever displayed a problem with climbing foes using spider climb or similar abilities (giant riding geckos, or whatever) to motor right up the walls, they can be designed to have caltrop-like spikes in the upper sections, *or* have glyphs of warding that blast climbers right off the side of the wall, *or* be enspelled with some sort of grease effect (temporarily, again, perhaps via alchemical oils, or flat-out mundane grease from the kitchens!), or some combination of the above, so that those giant spider-riding fools end up falling off the walls to their death before they make it up to the defenders.

It's relatively easy to come up with counters for this stuff. The spells and alchemical items and mundane items in the PHB are great for attacking stuff right here and now, and not at all designed for making a position defensible for decades. It's a game designed for adventurers, who are more pro-active, and more likely to be assaulting a castle than defending one. And even then, there are a ton of spells that *can* be used to defend a castle (starting with Hallow -> your cleric spell here), and potentially unlimited spells and mundane and special equipment items that can be dreamed up by the retired adventurers who now live in that castle.

 

[Celebrim]

Dude, I agree with your arguments, but chill.

Castles will be useless, or use-impaired, only in a setting where both of the following are true:

• Powerful spellcasters are common.
• The spell list presented in the rulebooks is exhaustive (these are all the spells that exist) rather than representative (these are the spells that are generally useful for adventurers).

If the first is not true, then one cannot rely on having a high-level wizard available for offense or defense, and the army that does have such a wizard will use him or her with great care. Or, more accurately, the wizard will use him- or herself with great care, since high-level wizards are smart enough to make their own decisions and powerful enough that they don't have to take orders.

If the second is not true, then defensive magic can be used to counter offensive. A castle with layers of defensive wards built up over decades or centuries (or even millennia, considering the sort of time scale many fantasy settings operate on) could be a tough nut for even a high-level wizard to crack.

Pretty much exactly.

My campaign has the following assumptions:

1) Spellcasters over 6th level are rare. This is the 'PC's must remain special' rule.

2) Conversely, spell casters of up to 5th level are sufficiently common and ordinary that they may be employed just as you would employ any other highly skilled craftsman. Nobody is suprised by 1st and 2nd level spells.

3) Defensive magic is generally easier or no harder than offensive magic. This is the 'Magic the Gathering' rule meets the 'NPC's aren't completely helpless in the face of cunning PC's' rule. Because of the inherent superiority of an active offensive plan of action, if a passive defensive strategy is to be viable it must be more effective than an offensive one. Hense, combined with #2, defensive magic is common and ordinary. You'd no more forget to secure your castle against basic magical attack than you'd forget to put a door in the gate. While only the castles of the most important people would be designed to defend against unlikely threats, every country Baron can afford basic defenses against invisible creatures and magical fire and at least some protection from scrying in his private chambers. On the other hand, you want to penetrate the residence of the ruler of a 2000 year old empire, and your going to find the magical protection at least as impressive as the obvious walls. Note further that like the castles of the real world, the goal isn't to make the castle impentratable, but rather to make reducing the castle take long enough that help can arrive and the logistics of the seige are expensive to beseigers.

4) Magic has been a part of the setting for a long time. There is nothing obvious that the PC's (or NPC's for that matter) can attempt that wouldn't have been tried before on many occassions. Social custom, military architecture, magistrates and the law all assume the existance of magic. Combined with #2, this means that no one is confused by simple illusions or invisibility in quite the way they would be in our world. Everybody knows magic exists. If the dog is barking and scowling and the door is opening on its own, even a moron thinks, "There is something invisible there!" That might still be realling frightening thought, but any creature with more than 7 INT and something of a backbone tends to have as his next thought, "If the thing was really confident of its power, it wouldn't bother to make itself invisible. Maybe I can stick a torch to it and make it go away."

5) Very high level wizards possessing god-like power tend to keep their heads down, precisely because the gods are not particularly happy with the whole idea of mortals with god-like power. In particular, in usage of magic that threatens to return the world to 'the Age of Wonders' when high level magic was common, tends to set the gods in a real tizzy. For example, a high level wizard would know that the gods don't really care if he builds a teleportation network between his sanctum and some other abode for his private use, but would know not try to build an intercontinental teleportation network accessible to everyone. You can make a flying conveyance for your own amusement, but if you make a fleet of flying carriages and start charging fares beware. If some upstart king decides to conquer the village you protect, you are perfectly free to teleport his army deep into the Desert of Tears to defend your property, but if you decide that you want to use your magic to create an army for the purposes of creating a new empire don't be suprised if a series of highly improbable events occurs that ends up in your death.

 

[Haltherrion]

In your campaign!

Gods, how bloody hard is that to understand?

See, in old D&D, conjure elemental is a 5th level spell. We'll just ignore the really major difficulty in the original rules. To cast it at all requires at least a 9th level (Sorcerer) magic-user. Those tend in my experience to be pretty rare, because lower-level m-us tend to die like flies (often enough at the hands of rival mages). Not that it matters much, seeing as how (per the 1E DMG) you can't recruit them as henchmen and they have little interest in being hirelings. A magic-user's effectiveness in combat is pretty well proportional to her or his ability either (a) to tell you to take your job and shove it; or (b) just to take whatever you have that it turns out he or she actually wants.

And mages killing each other off is certainly an aspect of your campaign and hardly typical.

When considering the effect of magic on a world, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me to hew too closely to guides that were created to enable a game. Those guides are fine for what they are meant (suggestions on one way to run a world) but hardly are the bible of magic worlds and societies.

This post is about a mental exercise: what would happen to castles if there was magic and monsters in the world.

A DMG may claim mages would be rare and perhaps they would be in the typical realm. But can you image a Rome or any other conquering power not exploiting something as potent as a mage? It's how conquerors became conquerors: they couple a drive to expand with effective exploitation of available methods. Magic seems quite exploitable with the right infrastructure. Maybe few can pull that off but then, how many city-states in the ancient world had the wherewithal to become Rome? It just takes a few to show the way.