Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?

[Aldarc]

Doublespeak, Department of, procedure, standard, Mark I. But why is castle X there in the first place, and who and what is there with an interest in besieging it?

If you really want to talk about what "makes sense", then -- to the extent that the elements have real-world analogs -- you cannot well dismiss real-world experience.

If you really want to talk about what makes sense in the context of a Dungeons & Dragons game, then you cannot well dismiss actual play experience. If there is advantage to be had, then count on players taking it! D&D is "survival of the fittest" on overdrive.

At least it used to be so. If the "magic economy" in 4e (plate +1, leather +1, same price!; no incentive to make ritual scrolls for sale; etc.) is "D&D rules", then certainly so are the Original and Advanced games' assumptions.

If you just want to shoot the breeze about whatever measures and counter measures people posting here can theoretically contrive, then you may as well simply drop those conceits -- contentiously dismissive claims that distract from your desire.

By pressing an argument that castles do not "make sense in a world of dragons and spells" -- and arbitrarily, against all evidence, insisting that the world must (in what becomes a circular argument) conform in every respect to the needs of your case -- what do you expect?

What I think one reasonably ought to expect as a consequence is counter-arguments.

There is also the dimension of level. There may be one wizard for 1000 mundanes, but that wizard is only level 1. A nobleman may offer a wizard patronage, granting them housing and a place of study in return for providing counsel and defense. More powerful wizards may require more for their services. So the average magistrate's villa or castle may only have a level 2-3 wizard. Another possibility is that the nobility themselves may be the wizards.

Towns and castles: the presence of magic users, whether they are rare or not, shifts combat and defense towards a much more modern direction. Wizards and sorcerers become medium-range artillery pieces. And while walls may not be built to keep wizards out, they could be used to keep riff-raff peasants, most dangerous beasts out of towns, and to create choke-points for attacking mundane infantry.

As to magical protection, Eberron has the dragonmark of warding, whose guild houses focus on magical protection and defense.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Consider what happens on the ramparts of a standard RW castle assaulted by a force containing a single arcanist of moderate power. Magic Missiles could pick off archers despite their cover. A fireball- perhaps metamagically sculpted- would create a void into which attackers could pour.

A bit more powerful, and the spellcaster could Dimension Door in a few assasins/marines into a strategic location, resulting in poisonings, assassinations, and sabotage.

IMHO, the nature of threats available in warfare in any given fantasy realm is going to pressure the way war is prosecuted towards the models we see from WW1 on VERY quickly- trenches, bunkers, and so forth will dominate, rather than immense stone castles.

The money that would normally be spent on castles would be instead be spent on special weapon systems. In a fantasy realm, that would mean the discovery and training of those who had access to magic, psionics, special abilities, or simply, the über-combat skills of a typical adventuring warrior.

And, FWIW, take a look at Harry Turtledove's excellent Darkness series, which depicts a world war set in a fantasy realm. Good, good stuff.

 

[Coldwyn]

Just a thought: The 4E teleport circle is a good reason for the existence of castles. I think a quick and easy access point to a nations magical trasportation would be guarded by a fortification. Also said fortification would be the communication hub for the region as well as a local trading centre.
Same would hold true for 3E. If a nations magic users would train their scrying on the castles, so to realiably teleport/circle teleport there, they would be major staging grounds. This would nearly render the whole attack/siege discussions as mood, because the type of attacker is meaningless as long as reinforments of the needed type can be teleportet in on short notice.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Do traditional castles make sense as defensive structures in a fantasy world of dragons and spells?

If you absurdly apply all rules to their furthest, coldly logical extreme, no. Castles would generally be expensive, frequently ineffective extravagences. However, if the DM chooses to run a game according to the spirit of what he wants in his game world rather than allow himself to be restricted by the letter of rules, then the purpose and effectiveness of traditional stonework defenses remains the same.

 

[Stoat]

Consider what happens on the ramparts of a standard RW castle assaulted by a force containing a single arcanist of moderate power. Magic Missiles could pick off archers despite their cover. A fireball- perhaps metamagically sculpted- would create a void into which attackers could pour.

A bit more powerful, and the spellcaster could Dimension Door in a few assasins/marines into a strategic location, resulting in poisonings, assassinations, and sabotage.

Here's where I see the disconnect.

A sixth level wizard is powerful enough to cast Fireball, but not Dimension Door. He has four 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells and three 3rd level spells. Those spell slots go fast. Fly, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Mage Armor and Shield leave him with two 3rd level slots, two 2nd level slots and two 1st level slots.

His magic missiles do 2d4+2 points of damage. His fireball does 6d6 (avg. 21).

Assume he's got a robust constitution, and he's got about 27 hit points.

He's no lightweight, but I don't think he renders castles obsolete.

Now if there are ten or twenty of him, or if you give him equipment beyond the DMG wealth by level rules, that changes things.

 

[El Mahdi]

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[S'mon]

I'm sorry but, where did you get this information from?

The entire UK combined is only about 2.5% of the European land mass by area (which makes England itself even less), yet England throughout the Medieval period had a population of between 5% to 10% of Europe's total population.

For England to have a lower population density, it's population would have needed to be less than 2% of the total European population. I don't believe England's relative population was ever that low...

From here, AIR: Medieval Demographics Made Easy

I was comparing England to the rest of western Europe of course, not "Europe" which is normally taken as extending to the Urals. Medieval France (118/sq m AIE), medieval Germany (78/sq m) both much higher population density than Britain (ca 30/sq m), or England. Much of England was, and is, hills and moorland unsuitable for agriculture. France by contrast is mostly tillable land

Edit: Or to put it another way, 15th century France's 25 million population was nearly ten times that of England.

Edit 2: Medieval England did not have modern England's enormous predominance in population over the rest of Great Britain. AIR 15th century England had around 3 million (down from ca 4 million right before the Black Death), to Wales & Scotland's 1.5 million combined.

 

[El Mahdi]

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[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's where I see the disconnect.

A sixth level wizard is powerful enough to cast Fireball, but not Dimension Door. He has four 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells and three 3rd level spells. Those spell slots go fast. Fly, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Mage Armor and Shield leave him with two 3rd level slots, two 2nd level slots and two 1st level slots.

His magic missiles do 2d4+2 points of damage. His fireball does 6d6 (avg. 21).

Assume he's got a robust constitution, and he's got about 27 hit points.

He's no lightweight, but I don't think he renders castles obsolete.

Now if there are ten or twenty of him, or if you give him equipment beyond the DMG wealth by level rules, that changes things.

That wizard by himself doesn't render a castle obsolete. The fact that he's not the only wizard in the world as powerful as that- along with all the other creatures in the world that can do pretty much the same thing- does.

Figure he can probably sweep the wall clear of archers, etc. with his first Fireball, possibly with archers helping KEEP it clear. He could follow that up with MMs and other spells. Planning for all that, the attacking force will have him do so and have troops ready to fill that void.

But lets say that the problem isn't the Wiz and a besieging army. Lets say its a decent sized dragon. Dragons are smart, at least as smart as humans.

With planning, a single dragon should be able to take down a RW castle within a week.

All he has to do is drop rocks from altitude- its a tactic gulls and other avians use to break open armored prey, so a dragon could figure it out. Essentially, he'd be acting as a trebuchet from an angle that the castle has no defense for. A light load for a typical Adult dragon is equivalent to a small trebuchet round- a medium load could be as much as twice that. Drop one of those from a dive or strafe and it doesn't have to worry about penetrating reinforced walls. Its going right for the lesser strength inner walls, rooftops, people, stables, etc.

After a few days of tenderizing, he can use his spells & breath weapons to finish the job in an afternoon.

Now...lets say its not a dragon or a wizard. Lets just say its a force of Elves riding giant Eagles. They can rain down death in the form of arrows and (smaller) rocks just as easily from out of the range of the defenders because gravity is their friend. They may even add the odd rotting corpse of a pig or cow to the mix.

Adding any kind of magic on the part of the elves shoves things further in their favor.

Now, obviously, magic on the side of the besieged helps all of this. But the point remains: a strongpoint with open courtyards and uncovered battlements- IOW, a standard RW castle- is as good as useless in a world where flying hostiles are a real possibility.

 

[Ariosto]

That wizard by himself doesn't render a castle obsolete. The fact that he's not the only wizard in the world as powerful as that- along with all the other creatures in the world that can do pretty much the same thing- does.

Speaking from experience (in D&D games, but not 3e): "it ain't necessarily so". Why is it so hard to understand that it depends upon the particulars? Are people coming into this thread from some alternate universe in which all "worlds of dragons and spells" are identical?

But the point remains: a strongpoint with open courtyards and uncovered battlements- IOW, a standard RW castle- is as good as useless in a world where flying hostiles are a real possibility.

How about an open-topped armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle? How about unarmored trucks, jeeps, universal carriers, motorcycles, bicycles, horses? I'm talking about the Second World War, in units for which flying hostiles were a lot more than a "possibility".

In real life, the "standard RW castle" was equipped with hoardings for the ramparts. In real life, the courtyard got plenty of use during the vast majority of time when the castle was not under attack -- and did not make the fortifications around it any less useful in time of need. In real life, those fortresses had roofs, and their walls were pierced with shooting ports.

"The things you think are useless, I can't understand." The castle still has its old uses. Where and when one has some other purpose in mind, naturally one should consider other means. If you're facing brigades of T-34 tanks, then the Mannerheim Line may be a good choice (if you've got the know-how to build it). Versus a basically medieval army alone, or one accompanied by a few fantastic figures, a good old castle may do just fine.

Pull out Swords & Spells or Battle System, or whatever rules set may be appropriate, and actually give it a go.

Then consider that in most cases a castle actually serves in battle for a tiny fraction of its occupation -- if ever at all. In the meantime, it is a lord's home and court, a (or the) center of manorial society.