Do characters know their class level?

[Arrowhawk]

A friend and I are co-DMing a Faerun 3.5 campaign. Immersion is a big thing for him. We had a situation where we had to go buy some 1st level scrolls and naturally wanted ones cast by the highest caster we could find. The DM decides that people don't know what levels are and gave us the blank stare.

I won't go into the rationale on either side, but I'm curious what others do in their campaigns. Sure, HP's, BAB bonus, Skill modifiers are all metagame, but do people treat class levels as being metagame as well?

I'm also curious if people who played 1e remember that all classes had labels for each level e.g. Footpad, Acolyte, Strider, Prestigitator, etc. Did anyone think those labels were metagame and unknown to the actual characters?

EDIT:

Let me ask a third/fourth questions:

Is there anything in the game that specifically says or suggests characters don't know when they advance a level or that they level?

Another way to put this is to ask whether characters knowing their level is actually intended to be part of how the game is played e.g. Wizard's knowing which spells are 1st level and which are 2nd level.

 

[TheEvil]

Heck, I didn't even know anyone who used them at the time. That aside, as much as class level is a metagame thing, relative gauge of individual power level is not. Since many things in D&D are based off of character level (e.g. effects of dragonfear or a sleep spell, what spells you can cast) it seems unreasonable to say that there is not some non-meta way to catagorize it.

 

[xigbar]

There are no "levels" in the game world. Imaginary it may be, but it is assumed to be like a real world, and people aren't aware of some number floating over eachothers heads. Although the above poster is right that there are perceived relative levels of power, you would need magic to see roughly how strong they are, but you wouldn't be measuring it in "level."

 

[Jimlock]

In the case of a scroll, or magic in general, it is no metagame to scale power. Sure there is more powerful magic than some other magic and you can call it and define it anyway you want. NPCs in the know, can make the difference, and can be as precise as the DM wants it, depending on the knowledge of the NPC of course. A Magic Missile scroll written/made/created by a 9th level wizard is very different from a 1st level MM, and the wizards and merchants sure as hell know about it. The probably don't call scrolls by "caster level", but they can surely say:

"You think the price is high? Well this is no ordinary missile my friend. This scroll was created by the very hands of Zalar, the most powerful wizard in town. If you know how to read it, you 'll know the difference..."

In-game the DM, may say: "The arcana upon the papyrus is certainly different from what you've seen so far, but that's probably because you come from so far away. Still you realize this is superior quality. After going through the intricate symbols thoroughly, you do realize that the merchant is not trying to rob you... completely. This one is indeed a powerful spell."

And off-game, without destroying the mood or anything, he can go: "this is a caster level 9 MM"

And I don't see any harm that way.

Moreover, don't forget that a wizard, in game, does not simply make a generic difference between something powerful and more powerful.

By his knowledge he can tell even the smallest difference (a caster level 11 scroll, from a caster level 12 scroll... even if all that changes is another round per level).
Don't have the numbers and rules destroy your mood and in game discussions, just give the information quickly on the side.

That's what I do, and it works fine.

 

[Arrowhawk]

There are no "levels" in the game world. Imaginary it may be, but it is assumed to be like a real world, and people aren't aware of some number floating over eachothers heads. Although the above poster is right that there are perceived relative levels of power, you would need magic to see roughly how strong they are, but you wouldn't be measuring it in "level."

In the "real" world, many organizations use or employ "levels." Amateur tennis players are ranked by a system such as 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5, etc. Karate dojo's in America typically give out ranks based on belt color, White, Green, Yellow, and we all know of Black belts don't we? Those level are not organization, such as manager, supervisor, but idenitify differences in skill/ability.

1e says that your class is like your "profession." 1e, for Druids, Thieves and Monks, the named level seems to convey some organizational structure as there can only be one Grandmaster of the Flowers / Granddaddy etc. Druid in any enclave.

We also see "levels" in religious organizations, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, Arch-Bishop, Pope.

Even our education system has "levels" which indicate ability/knowledge.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that levels don't exist in the real world. Magic users don't exist, but the concept of levels denoting ability and skill do.

 

[Dandu]

There are no "levels" in the game world. Imaginary it may be, but it is assumed to be like a real world, and people aren't aware of some number floating over eachothers heads. Although the above poster is right that there are perceived relative levels of power, you would need magic to see roughly how strong they are, but you wouldn't be measuring it in "level."

In a game world, you have several things that are quantized; for example, the duration of Mage Armor is measured in hours/caster level. A third level wizard will cast a Mage Armor that lasts 3 hours, while a fourth level wizard will cast a Mage Armor that lasts 4 hours. At no point will you ever get a wizard who casts a Mage Armor that lasts 3.5 hours.

Based on this, I'm sure that you can extrapolate what "level" of wizard you are.

Same goes for other classes, I suppose.

 

[Arrowhawk]

In the case of a scroll, or magic in general, it is no metagame to scale power. Sure there is more powerful magic than some other magic and you can call it and define it anyway you want. NPCs in the know, can make the difference, and can be as precise as the DM wants it, depending on the knowledge of the NPC of course. A Magic Missile scroll written/made/created by a 9th level wizard is very different from a 1st level MM, and the wizards and merchants sure as hell know about it. The probably don't call scrolls by "caster level", but they can surely say:

"You think the price is high? Well this is no ordinary missile my friend. This scroll was created by the very hands of Zalar, the most powerful wizard in town. If you know how to read it, you 'll know the difference..."

In-game the DM, may say: "The arcana upon the papyrus is certainly different from what you've seen so far, but that's probably because you come from so far away. Still you realize this is superior quality. After going through the intricate symbols thoroughly, you do realize that the merchant is not trying to rob you... completely. This one is indeed a powerful spell."

And off-game, without destroying the mood or anything, he can go: "this is a caster level 9 MM"

And I don't see any harm that way.

Moreover, don't forget that a wizard, in game, does not simply make a generic difference between something powerful and more powerful.

By his knowledge he can tell even the smallest difference (a caster level 11 scroll, from a caster level 12 scroll... even if all that changes is another round per level).
Don't have the numbers and rules destroy your mood and in game discussions, just give the information quickly on the side.

That's what I do, and it works fine.

I'm not sure I understand...

So differences in spell power are not metagame? I think we're already clear on that point.

NPC's "in the know" can tell the difference. But you never have them talk about it in exact terms? But you still tell the player OOC exactly what those levels are?

What happens when a character specifically wants a CLW casts by a 5th level Cleric? Do you let your characters tell the shopkeep, "I'm looking for a CLW cast by a 5th level Cleric."?

Going back to your belief that NPC's and spell casters would know the smallest difference, lvl 11 vs lvl 12, wouldn't it seem reasonable that the school of Wizards would adopt a classification system and, i don't know, enumerate it? I mean if all these abnormally intelligent people do is deal with magic, and magic operates based on a step function, wouldn't they have adopted a system for labeling it with precision? I'm not talking about some commoner knowing the system, I'm talking about the casters themselves.

just throwing that out there...as food for thought

And fyi, I think it's immersion breaking to think commoners would know their level. lol.

 

[xigbar]

In the "real" world, many organizations use or employ "levels." Amateur tennis players are ranked by a system such as 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5, etc. Karate dojo's in America typically give out ranks based on belt color, White, Green, Yellow, and we all know of Black belts don't we? Those level are not organization, such as manager, supervisor, but idenitify differences in skill/ability.

1e says that your class is like your "profession." 1e, for Druids, Thieves and Monks, the named level seems to convey some organizational structure as there can only be one Grandmaster of the Flowers / Granddaddy etc. Druid in any enclave.

We also see "levels" in religious organizations, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, Arch-Bishop, Pope.

Even our education system has "levels" which indicate ability/knowledge.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that levels don't exist in the real world. Magic users don't exist, but the concept of levels denoting ability and skill do.

I know that. I played varsity tennis for my school, and I did martial arts for seven years. But, as you yourself said, we don't have things like magic. Anyone in the real world would be hardly different than, at best, a 2nd level character. They don't all of a sudden gain enough health to survive multiple bites of a T-Rex or bullet wounds. At the same times, there are people whose reflexes are the equivalent of Improved Uncanny Dodge, and can move a hell of a lot more than 30ft. in 10 seconds, but on a general scale, "level," in the sense your using is very localized and only applying to an amount of training that has been dedicated to one kind of thing.

 

[xigbar]

In a game world, you have several things that are quantized; for example, the duration of Mage Armor is measured in hours/caster level. A third level wizard will cast a Mage Armor that lasts 3 hours, while a fourth level wizard will cast a Mage Armor that lasts 4 hours. At no point will you ever get a wizard who casts a Mage Armor that lasts 3.5 hours.

Based on this, I'm sure that you can extrapolate what "level" of wizard you are.

Same goes for other classes, I suppose.

Sure, time can be measured numerically, but, even barring magic, the real world doesn't have something that is the equivalent of what a 20th level monk is doing, despite a Monk being near useless against level appropriate encounters. There isn't a numerical measurement for combat potency, or omnipotence, in the case of magic-users.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I know that. I played varsity tennis for my school, and I did martial arts for seven years. But, as you yourself said, we don't have things like magic. Anyone in the real world would be hardly different than, at best, a 2nd level character. They don't all of a sudden gain enough health to survive multiple bites of a T-Rex or bullet wounds. At the same times, there are people whose reflexes are the equivalent of Improved Uncanny Dodge, and can move a hell of a lot more than 30ft. in 10 seconds, but on a general scale, "level," in the sense your using is very localized and only applying to an amount of training that has been dedicated to one kind of thing.

I'm not sure I understand your response. I'm really asking two questions,

1) what goes on in your campaign? Do characters, such as Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Wizards, know they are level X?

2) Provided you played 1e, was it your interpretation that the named levels were in-character concepts?

Magic isn't really central to these questions, but it does suggest some unavoidable aspects of the game...like the fact that Wizards would be aware of its stratified nature...."Gee...suddenly I can cast any 2nd level spell where as yesterday before my training, I couldn't cast even one??"