Do characters know their class level?

I'm not sure I understand your response. I'm really asking two questions,

1) what goes on in your campaign? Do characters, such as Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Wizards, know they are level X?

2) Provided you played 1e, was it your interpretation that the named levels were in-character concepts?

Magic isn't really central to these questions, but it does suggest some unavoidable aspects of the game...like the fact that Wizards would be aware of its stratified nature...."Gee...suddenly I can cast any 2nd level spell where as yesterday before my training, I couldn't cast even one??"

No, they don't. I didn't play 1e. And that's my point. Life doesn't have that stratified nature. Improvements in real life relative combat ability is very slow and gradual, and never reaches anything like the equivalent of beyond even 2nd level, 3rd at best.
 

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I'm not sure I understand...

So differences in spell power are not metagame? I think we're already clear on that point. :)

indeed.

NPC's "in the know" can tell the difference. But you never have them talk about it in exact terms? But you still tell the player OOC exactly what those levels are?

Sure two wizards can talk in exact terms (not the average merchant though), its just that they don't use the terms we players use to define things.

I like to imagine arcane magic... or any magic for that matter, as something obscure, mysterious and "incomprehensible". When I picture the conversation between two wizards, I don't like the idea of them saying "I just learned a 4th level spell! It does a whole lot of damage to all creatures in a 20 foot radius. Want to trade?"
What they actually say about their art I never even attempt to replicate. To me that would be a major mood breaker.

All such technicalities required by the players, are given in an "off-game" dialogue/discussion.

So we don't actually disagree, it's just a different approach on dealing with in game discussions.

I...hope I'm clear...

And fyi, I think it's immersion breaking to think commoners would know their level. lol.

lol, ok... that was a good one.
 

IMC "level" of character is totally metagame. However, wizards can compare power by declaring what their most powerful spell is and there is a concept of "valence" for spell level (cribbed from Sepulchrave's excellent story hour).
 

Let's see...

Almost any caster can figure out their "level" quite easily, although they likely won't consider it such - assuming they've got ranks in Spellcraft.

From the journal of Ranth Norzor, 13th head of the Wizards Guild of Southshire, east district:
"Of those young Wizards who could not hold on to a Detect Magic spell for at least three minutes, none were found that could also master See Invisibility. Of those young Wizards who could manage See Invisibility, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least three minutes when pressed. Of those who could manage a Tongues spell, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least five minutes when pressed. I have come to the conclusion that the lowly Detect Magic spell is a remarkably useful tool for measuring the ability of a Wizard; a simple exercise with a water clock gave me a surprisingly reliable indicator of what level of skill the person had with the arcane arts, and which other spells they were likely to be able to manage."

Other types of classes would be trickier - but essentially any caster that has enough in their primary casting attribute to get their highest-level spell can figure it out quite easily... and will do so of necessity, to an extent, due to the costs involved in making scrolls.
 

Spell casters will know what level of spell they can cast, and in game we talk about some Wizard being a "master of the 5th circle", meaning that he can cast 5h level spells (we avoid the term "level" in game).

Other classes lack that easy and objective metric, so nothing like it is ever really employed in game at our table. And because of the level limit on spells cast based on ability score, it's quite possible to be a very high level caster, but never measure up that way when it comes to comparing which "circle" of spell you can throw.

In our last campaign (the one where 9th level spells were removed from the game world), my Wizard was talking to the leader of a group of Red Mages.

He noted that I wasn't a specialized Mage, nor a member of his order, so he asked, "What rank of apprentice are you?"

My character replied, "Well, I can cast to the 8th circle, and can enhance spells beyond that."

The Red Mage master was shocked. "So, you're an Arch Mage?", he asked in surprise.

"Yes, and yet I am still a student, seeking to learn more."

In that scene we had to tip-toe around the meta-game information, wording it carefully so I could tell their master that my character was at least 17th level, and pretty much his equal.
 

Almost any caster can figure out their "level" quite easily, although they likely won't consider it such - assuming they've got ranks in Spellcraft.

From the journal of Ranth Norzor, 13th head of the Wizards Guild of Southshire, east district:
"Of those young Wizards who could not hold on to a Detect Magic spell for at least three minutes, none were found that could also master See Invisibility. Of those young Wizards who could manage See Invisibility, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least three minutes when pressed. Of those who could manage a Tongues spell, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least five minutes when pressed. I have come to the conclusion that the lowly Detect Magic spell is a remarkably useful tool for measuring the ability of a Wizard; a simple exercise with a water clock gave me a surprisingly reliable indicator of what level of skill the person had with the arcane arts, and which other spells they were likely to be able to manage."

Other types of classes would be trickier - but essentially any caster that has enough in their primary casting attribute to get their highest-level spell can figure it out quite easily... and will do so of necessity, to an extent, due to the costs involved in making scrolls.

I think this is an excellent post because it describes the elephant in the room. You point out something that seems almost self-evident:

Almost any caster can figure out their "level" quite easily although they likely won't consider it such

But why not? So why wouldn't a caster describe it as a level or tier or order as that is the most accurate way to describe it? I mean, Wizards in particular are one of the most didactic classes why wouldn't they use precise language to describe their mastery of magic? As you point out, the cost of making scrolls is a 50ft banner that says, "You are now level X, please pay Y amount to make the scroll."

It is quite fascinating for me to read the responses and see that there seems to such consensus that despite magic working in "levels" and everyone agreeing that Wizards would have figured that out, nobody wants the Wizards to think of it as such. It's not like magic was invented just before one's campaign. Wizards have been wrestling with the art of magic for eons, attempting to learn its secrets and master it through sheer force of intellect. Not one of them would decide to simply describe things in levels...despite their understanding that's exactly how magic works even if they don't understand why it works?

Really?

People really think Wizards wouldn't say, I'm a 1st Order, or 3rd Order Wizard? I certainly can understand that they might not use the exact word "level" but nobody thinks that they wouldn't have strict classifications for their level of ability...given that the level model describes it perfectly?

For a babarian, or shaman, where we can insist they don't have a literal school to train at, I can see how the practicers of the profession would not think of themselves in such rigid terms. But Wizards? They would eat that up. They would feast on anything that allowed them to neatly organize things.

One of the questions that naturally comes up for me is whether D&D originally intended for the in-character classes to recognize their advancement occured in levels. In 1e, characters literally had to go train based on the average letter grade the DM gave them over their adventures (seriously). In 3.x it's not clear to me what the leveling process is. Does 3.5 take any definitive stance on this subject?

Good post, by the way.
 

"I just learned a 4th level spell! It does a whole lot of damage to all creatures in a 20 foot radius. Want to trade?"
So you don't think figuring out the exact radius, duration, distance, etc of a spell is something that Wizards would have done over the eons that they've all been casting the same spells at the appropriate levels? You do have your Wizards learn their spells from research right?
 


So you don't think figuring out the exact radius, duration, distance, etc of a spell is something that Wizards would have done over the eons that they've all been casting the same spells at the appropriate levels? You do have your Wizards learn their spells from research right?

Oh, I do, but not in the exact "clear-cut", almost "mechanical" terms we use when we play the game.

We don't know how magic REALLY works, and we'll never find out. And that's how I like to keep it in my games. As I said, I like to keep magic as obscure, as mystical and as vague as I can, especially when in-game technicalities risk of destroying the mood.

I'm not saying that wizards can't be precise about their art, I'm just saying that I don't like being precise about how the art really works.

This does not mean that I like players being kept in the dark as far as their own powers and spells, and things they would naturally know are concerned (most of the times :D)... but when they encounter unknown supernatural effects, they know simply what i describe them.

Think of it as if all the magic rules: caster level, duration, components etc etc... are mere simplifications for us mortals to get a small grip on things we'll never really grasp :)

Uuumm... So as to be clear, I do NOT believe in magic or any other supernatural crap... this is just my approach on things so as to somehow separate game-mechanics from the fantasy worlds in D&D. It's all about immersion.
 

I've written some fiction from the point of view of a Factotum journaling a year of his life.

Included is references to access to a degree of spells, and mention of how long particular spells are in effect. When he can Polymorph for ten minutes, one can glean class level.

There is reference to unlocking a deeper understanding of magic and abilities after one has experienced enough of life and adventure. This unlocking occurs relatively quickly. This is in-world"Leveling up".
 

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