Do enhancement bonuses to ability count against ability damage?

[wuyanei]

A situation came up while we were fighting some shadows. A character with 14 Str plus a potion of Bull's Strength was strength damaged to 2 Str exactly, before we could destroy the last shadow. So the question is, what would happen when the Bull's Strength wears off? Does he die (and rise in 1d4 rounds)? Get reduced to 0 Str but no lower? What would happen if we gave him a Belt of Giant Strength +4 (not that we have one)? What if it was with Str drain, instead of Str damage -- what would happen if he took off the belt say, three months later?

In our group, we went with the 'more fun' option, and let the character live at 0 Str -- ruled that if the Shadow could not kill you outright, the 'ability scores do not go below 0' rule applies. However, is there a 'official' rule or established answer for this situation? I would like to know so as to apply if the question comes up in the future.

Thanks for your time!

BTW: Three shadows, they had surprise -- partial charge attack out of a wall for 6, 4, 4 Str damage! The rest of the party then managed to kill one, and the cleric drove another off, but the last (the player did not play smart and run -- I would have overlooked encumberance in this case) struck again for 2 Str damage before the party could destroy it with concentrated fire... and this was just from a random encounter!

 

[glass]

I doubt it is directly address in the RAW anywhere, but I would have ruled as you did. The shadows touch didn't reduce the character to 0 strength, the potion wearing off did, so the special rules for the shadow's Str drain do not apply at that point.


glass.

 

[glass]

A situation came up while we were fighting some shadows. A character with 14 Str plus a potion of Bull's Strength was strength damaged to 2 Str exactly, before we could destroy the last shadow. So the question is, what would happen when the Bull's Strength wears off? Does he die (and rise in 1d4 rounds)? Get reduced to 0 Str but no lower?

Just a note, he is reduced to 0 Str but no lower regardless: ability scores always stop at 0. It's just a question of whether the dropping to 0 kills the character (per the shadow's ability) or just prevents his moving (the normal situation). I believe it is the latter.


glass.

 

[DreamChaser]

On the other hand, it could be argued that the shadow had already killed the character. It had drained him to -2 Str with a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, which is different from a strength score of 2 (and is impossible since there are no negative ability scores). By this interpretation (the less fun one of course) the character died when his strength score (sans enhancement bonus) reached 0.

DC

 

[glass]

On the other hand, it could be argued that the shadow had already killed the character. It had drained him to -2 Str with a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, which is different from a strength score of 2 (and is impossible since there are no negative ability scores). By this interpretation (the less fun one of course) the character died when his strength score (sans enhancement bonus) reached 0.

But as long as he jas the enhancement bonus, 'his own strength score' doesn't exist. His strength isn't '-2 with a +4 enhancement bonus': it's just 2.

Admittedly there are a couple of exceptions to this (Fox's Cunning and skill points), but they are exceptions because they specifically say so. Neither the shadows touch nor the potion mention any exception, so there isn't one.


glass.

 

[wuyanei]

But as long as he jas the enhancement bonus, 'his own strength score' doesn't exist. His strength isn't '-2 with a +4 enhancement bonus': it's just 2.

Admittedly there are a couple of exceptions to this (Fox's Cunning and skill points), but they are exceptions because they specifically say so. Neither the shadows touch nor the potion mention any exception, so there isn't one.


glass.

Yeah. Both interpretations came up in our game, but not being a neutral arbiter (the big secret of D&D: the DM actually roots for the PC characters!), I let the character live.

This (the 'fun' one) interpretation becomes iffy when you need to deal with poisons and the like. Say you have a +4 Belt of Giant Strength. If a poison damages you to Str 0, you can always remove the belt, then put it right back on, so that you are now at 4 Str! Now 4 Str isnt anything to crow about, but it is also a whole lot better than helpless!

Effectively, with this interpretation, no character can ever be reduced to 0 Str, Dex, Int, Wis or Cha for more time than is neccessary to slip them a +2 ability item. Wierd, I say.

The other, less fun, interpretation is that 0 Str +4 enhancement to Str still equals 0 Str. This interpretation will make ability damaging spells, effects or abilities especially deadly, since short of wish spells, any character can improve her abilities for a total of 5 points at most over 20 levels! A poison spell (dmg 1d10 Con/1d10 Con) or two, in this interpretion, will kill off quite a good percentage of even high level characters if they fail their saves. It does make sense -- you are just a human(oid), no, matter how much magic you have on you, and you are thus limited to a maximum of 23 Con (25 for Dwarves). But I would say that at higher levels, this interpretation will become rather deadly -- especially those DC 20+ poisonous monsters!

Both interpretations have merit, so I'd really like to see if there is an official answer somewhere. Thanks for taking your time to answer me, glass and DreamChaser. I really appreciate it! Thanks!

 

[glass]

This (the 'fun' one) interpretation becomes iffy when you need to deal with poisons and the like. Say you have a +4 Belt of Giant Strength. If a poison damages you to Str 0, you can always remove the belt, then put it right back on, so that you are now at 4 Str! Now 4 Str isnt anything to crow about, but it is also a whole lot better than helpless!

Well, someone can take the belt off for you and then put it back on. You can't do it for yourself!

You're right it is a little odd, but in the end it just allows a character to limp home on his own rather than being carried. I don't consider it a problem.


glass.

 

[wuyanei]

'More reasonable' vs 'more fun,' eh? I'll chose 'more fun' anytime of the day!

 

[Nail]

By RAW, you can pull the "belt switch" trick. I'd house rule that the belt of Con was temporarily damaged, and recovers just as the PC would.

Isn't there a FAQ entry on this? I can't find it.

 

[werk]

I found a FAQ through Google...It looks old.

Ability Score Loss

If my character has a magically-enhanced ability score, can temporary ability damage or permanent ability drain reduce her score to zero? To put it differently, assume my PC has a 10 Con and has an endurance spell cast on her for +3 Con. Can she be drained all the way to 0 Con, or does the magic somehow protect her such that she can only drop to 3 Con? (link)

Your character's Con (or any other stat) can be reduced all the way to zero. Ability damage and drain reduce your whole stat, including bonuses from spells and items. This happens because bonuses stack with penalties, even if they are the same type.