Do Entangle, Grease and Web ruin D&D?

[FireLance]

Over in the World's Largest Dungeon thread, Jim Pinto mentioned:

i think entangle, web, and grease RUIN dungeons and dragons

Further on, he mentioned that one of the sidebars in the introduction to the World's Largest Dungeon contained comments as to why PCs should not have these spells.

Having DMed for a bit, I can honestly say that I have no problems with these spells. Does anyone have a different experience? If someone has got the World's Largest Dungeon and is willing to summarize the arguments in the sidebar, that would also be appreciated.

Please note that Jim Pinto has specifically avoided discussing this topic in the other thread, so I would appreciate it if you do not comment on him in this or the other thread. Please feel free to discuss his views, but no flames or nasty remarks.

Mods, I felt this was a toss-up between General and Rules. If you think it is more appropriate, please feel free to move it.

 

[2WS-Steve]

I imagine every GM (and maybe a few players) has a small list of things they don't like--thus all the house rules.

Those spells never caused any particular problem in the games I ran but they also weren't relied on too heavily. In WLD the comment regarding them is just a small one, small enough to even quote verbatim:

One last thing, spells like entangle and web are devastatingly powerful in a dungeon. We've made sure the bad guys don't have them, DM's should do the same with PCs.

If anything, entangle should be worse outside a dungeon since you can use it on a far away group then pepper the saps with arrows. But, again, it hasn't been a game breaker for me, just a way to make the druid feel useful occasionally at the lower levels.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I've never seen those spells abused in an actual PnP D&D session, but in the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game, one of my favorite tactics for dealing with powerful melee enemies was to entangle them and then riddle them with arrows from afar.

 

[Paragon Kobold]

Seems rather strange. Entangle and the like are tactical spells, that can be quite devastating
at times, but they don't really do that much by themselves. Their most common use as I have seen
it is against large groups of enemies, enabling the group to fight just a few at a time.
They are also extremely useful for covering retreats so that the characters can escape when they
are in over their heads. Perhaps the most annoying use, (and I speak now as a GM) is to prevent
enemies from escaping when defeated. Anyway, they are all spells that require some thought to use
effectively. Not a lot of thought mind you but more than the simple 'point and do damage' spells.

For me, using non-damaging spells to defeat your enemies or otherwise succeed simply feels a
lot more satisfying than to just pummeling them into submission. Therefore these are probably
the last spells I would ban.

 

[Darklone]

I have a long list of other spells which I would think they are killing D&D ... but not any below spell level 4

 

[StalkingBlue]

Hm, I haven't read the other thread, but taken out of context the poster quoted in the initial post above sounds like an extremely insecure DM unable to reward, or even run with, basic-smart player tactics.

Web is slightly overpowered for its level and Entangle can be in certain environments (although certainly not in a dungeon!), but both are easily fixed if required, and I've never encountered a problem with Grease. All three are nifty tactical spells, certainly - but game breakers?


We've found Entangle overpowered for a first-level spell in our mostly wilderness-based Midnight game, but I can't see how the spell would even see much in a dungeon crawl game. Entangle doesn't conjure up plants, it merely works on the plant already growing in an area - hence it's useless on the stone slabs and dead rocky tunnels of most dungeon environments.

Even in an outdoors setting, either shifting Entangle up to second level or halving the radius of the area effect works fine to balance it, we've tried both in our game.


Web of course works beautifully in a dungeon environment, and in our experience it's slightly overpowered for its level. As written Web effectively has no save - even if you succeed on the saving throw you are stuck and can't move an inch unless you succeed on difficult STR/Escape Artist Rolls for every 5' you wish to move until you finally burst out.
I allow 5' movement per round even on a failed STR check if the character has succeeded on the initial saving throw, but I don't think it's a necessary houserule at all: Web is a very useful spell for its level, but it there are ways to counter it (fire, for instance).


Grease ... well, if you really hate it, call the spellcaster "John Travolta" every time he casts it. That should prevent overuse.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I agree somewhat with those spells being irksome.

They are memory intensive spells. Every player need to remember if they saved, how far within the mess they are, the differing mechanics of how they impede movement & whatever bonuses due to partial cover. They are just headache spells that I must always look up (except for grease).

As a general rule, any spell that has a cumbersome description is seldom cast imc. Looking up rules mid combat just bogs everyone down and tempers are open to the risk of fraying.

I don't think they ruin D&D at all however.

 

[random user]

Well, last session my players just used web to defeat an encounter they should have had to retreat from. The party of six is all level 7 or 8. It's also a fairly high power world in addition to the 2 extra party members, so a CR12 is something I would consider a challenge to them -- something that they can defeat if they don't suck.

They encountered two wereboars using the hill giant wereboar stats (cr12) and a weretiger (cr5). Luckily for them, a couple things went the right way. They had thrown a torch (don't ask me why they don't have continual light stones by now, because I don't know the answer) into the center of a large cavern which was still low enough for web.

At the edge of the light they saw a tiger (which they knew was a weretiger) spring back. The monk moved forward and picked up the torch as his actions, with the intent of tossing the torch forward again the next round. The fighter stayed near the entry of the cavern, about 10 feet in, with the rest of the party behind him.

The two wereboars charged two different players, the monk and the fighter, who the closest. The weretiger was not able to engage because of distance but double-moved with the intent of flanking the human (it didn't know it was a monk) the next round and getting a full round of attacks with a 5 foot step.

The wereboar almost kills the monk, but he survives. He tumbles out of the way and web #1 goes off hitting the wereboar and weretiger which were next to the monk. The weretiger fails the save. The wereboar makes it.

The other party members do their thing, nothing unusual.

The weretiger attempts to break free and succeeds. The wereboar, who made his save last turn, attempts to move. It rolls a 10, which combined with its 40 str, gives it a roll of 25, which is enough to move 15 feet. It moves out of the web and can join its wereboar brother the next round.

Web #2 goes off. There is enough room that another 20 feet of web appear that the wereboar needs to deal with. It again makes its save. The weretiger rolls a 9 for its strength, which along with 25 strength gives it a +7 for 16 which means it can move 10 feet. It moves and is 5 feet away from making it out of the web the next turn.

The wereboar near the fighter is trading blows, but the fighter is being healed by both a cleric and a bard and is doing ok.

The next round wereboar moves 10 or 15 feet (I don't remember which -- remember this is with the +15 bonus from its enormous strength) and may make it out the next round. The tiger also rolls low but enough to move out of the web. Next turn it can get to the melee but not fight.

The party doesn't realize the weretiger isn't that strong and web #3 goes off. The tiger makes its save but has 20 feet of web to get through.

The next round the party downs the first wereboar just as the second one frees itself from the web. The tiger ended up being out of it for 3 more rounds, which is enough for the party (remember it's 6 on 1) to down the other wereboar.

By the time the weretiger gets out of its web, the second wereboar has died and it decides to flee.

2 cr12s and a cr5 killed/defeated by a standard level 7 and 8 party of 6. Nothing wacky is allowed... it's all core book only for the most part.

And it was all because of web, and despite the fact that two of the monsters had str 40 and the other a str 25.

Do I think it ruins D&D? Not really IMO. However, it can make some otherwise unwinnable situations trivial.

It also requires the DM to take it into account if they care (the story would have evolved ok whether they had defeated, negotiated, or ran from the monsters and my campaign doesn't award xp for monsters killed). It can be counteracted in many way Fire, magic use, rings of free action, etc etc. But it does require the DM to craft a strategy specifically for that spell, which can be annoying if the encounter matters in a particaular way.

Just my 2cp

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Do I think it ruins D&D? Not really IMO. However, it can make some otherwise unwinnable situations trivial.

My players use web sometimes, but it's certainly not a game-breaker. For one thing, intelligent foes won't hesitate to burn the web. Better to take a little bit of damage than to be entangled and slaughtered. For another thing, the spell provides cover or total cover. This can be very handy for those trapped -- or not -- in the web. Once concession I'll make is that the DCs for breaking free are 5 points too high, especially considering that making the attempt is a full-round action.

Similarly, when I played a druid, I found entangle to be useful, but with enough drawbacks that it wasn't a spell I relied on. The party was often hampered by the sheer size of the area affected, and the fact that the spell is non-discriminating. It did make the difference in a battle or two, but only with very good tactical use.

As for grease ... buh? Grease is the perfect example of a fun first-level spell to be creative with.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I ran a session where the PCs were the target of an entangle spell cast by a goblin druid.

They weren't too happy.

But do I think spells like this break the game? No. Not at all. Just remember, anything the PCs have access to, so, too, do the badguys (generally speaking).