Do familiars grant "real" Alertness?

[LokiDR]

KarinsDad, I think you have missed the point.

If you want to blow the rules off, fine. Every one does at one point or another. What you are suggesting, though, does not follow the rules, and this is the rules forum.

Also, I don't think you realize the difference between lossing dex and losing a feat. If you have dodge, and your dex goes below 13, you still have the feat, you just can't use it. You have the feat, and so when you get your dex back, the feat is there. You still have the pre-reqs for a class that requires dodge, but not one that requires dex 13+. I don't know many PrC that have stat requirments.

The question of loss doesn't answer the question of temperary bonuses though. If you can toss loss of special abilities from loss of pre-reqs, I can toss virtual feats. That makes the whole thing simpler, right?

The only thing that you are doing by allowing the abilites to come in by temperary bonuses, and not leave when the bonus leaves is powering up your game. The character becomes his magic items, since they are linked. If you like that kind of power up, go for it. I think it is too much, since the rules already allow for a lot.

As for the fun of book keeping, yes, it can be fun. It is actually a risk to lose you items. Not only do you lose the item, but some special abilites too. It keeps the game from being so linear, and therefore boring.

 

[0-hr]

You gained level. What's your current Int? Ok, you have X skill points.

And all of your players trade around their INT boosting items (and INT buff spells) for that magical moment when they level right? Must be cool to get an extra half dozen skill points every level. Do you let them grab a triple empowered Endurance spell for the extra hit points at leveling time too?

 

[Dead on Arrival]

Does it actually say anywhere that you lose the abilities of a class if you can no longer meet the pre-reqs? The only thing related I have seen is certain Prestige Classes give a condition whereby a character loses abilities or can no longer advance in that class.

EDIT: Nevermind, page 27 of the DMG more or less says it...

As for Int and skill points, my group uses the Int score that your character had the majority of the previous level to determine how many skill points you get when you level up. There is hardly any extra bookkeeping, and it is far from gamebreaking. An extra three skill points each level at maximum from a +6 enhancement item, not a big deal at all.

 

[Dead on Arrival]

Do you let them grab a triple empowered Endurance spell for the extra hit points at leveling time too?

Hit points gained from Constitution are retroactive, so when the spell expires...so do your extra hit points.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad, I think you have missed the point.

If you want to blow the rules off, fine. Every one does at one point or another. What you are suggesting, though, does not follow the rules, and this is the rules forum.

Oh, so it is suddenly disallowed to discuss bad rules, just because my opinion differs from yours?

You keep trying to imply that I am blowing off the rules, but the only rule I've discussed "blowing off" is losing the use of a feat because you lose a prerequisite. And, in fact, I am trying to use this very rule to illustrate a lack of consistency in your opinion between feats and prerequisites for PrCs (see below).

Also, I don't think you realize the difference between lossing dex and losing a feat. If you have dodge, and your dex goes below 13, you still have the feat, you just can't use it. You have the feat, and so when you get your dex back, the feat is there. You still have the pre-reqs for a class that requires dodge, but not one that requires dex 13+. I don't know many PrC that have stat requirments.

Please, don't be insulting. I absolutely understand the difference. I just do not agree with your interpretation of it.

Feat chains require every prerequisite under them.

So, if my Dex drops below 13, I not only lose Dodge, but I lose Mobility, I lose Shot on the Run, I lose Spring Attack, etc.

You can house rule that you still have the feat, but that is semantics. You've lost the feat until you gain it back. If you lose a hand, you cannot swing a weapon with that hand until you gain that hand back. If you never gain it back, then you can never use that hand. Ditto for feats. Ditto for levels. Ditto for ability scores. Ditto for anything else you lose.

Your argument is that if your Dex drops, you cannot gain any new feats that require Dodge since they will also require a Dex 13+, but if a PrC requires the Dodge feat, it doesn't require Dex 13+.

Hmmmm.


The fact is that if you are going to extrapolate the rules, you should be consistent.

There are no core rules for feats from familiars allowing either other feats or PrCs.
There are no core rules for Ranger Two Weapon and Ambidexterity feats allowing either other feats or PrCs.
There are no core rules for feats gained from magic allowing either other feats or PrCs.
There are no core rules for if you lose the use of a feat, then you can or cannot qualify for a PrC that has that feat as a prerequisite.

So, as you repeatedly remind me, this is the rules forum. So, if you extrapolate the feat rules concerning prerequisites for allowing any of these for other feats or PrCs, you should also extrapolate the feat rules concerning losing your prerequisites.

If Dodge is a prerequisite, then so is Dex 13+, regardless of what the prerequisite applies to.

If Dodge is a prerequisite for a PrC and your Dex <13, then you should not be allowed to take that PrC since you are missing one of the prerequisites. There should be no difference between this and picking a feat.

If your Elf want to become an Arcane Archer and someone Polymorphs him into an Orc, he is missing out on the prerequisite. Just because he was an Elf at one point in time does not mean that he is able to become an Arcane Archer as an Orc.

Just because you took a feat in the past does not mean that you have that feat forever. Nothing in the game is permanent. You can permanently lose feats, levels, hit points, ability scores, alignment, race, gender, etc.

If your Dex is permanently dropped below 13, then you also permanently lose the Dodge feat. Saying that you only permanently lose the use of the Dodge feat is semantics. The fact remains is that you cannot do it any better than anyone else who never took the feat.

Your opinion is that if you lose the use of Dodge, you can still gain a PrC. If you have the use of Alertness from your familiar, you cannot gain a PrC just because your familiar could get out of arms reach and you would lose the Alertness. That is an inconsistent position. Ditto for feats from magic items.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, unless you yourself want to "blow off the rules" (I am being facetious here, there are no rules on this stuff).

 

[AGGEMAM]

To qualify for a PrC, a feat, or whatever the prereq's required must be met by a natural, acquired, or inherent(*) ability score, feat, skill ranks, or alignment.

So gaining 'the use of a feat when/while' equals a virtual feat and does not qualify you for eg. PrCs.

However loosing a prereq for a PrC, a feat or whatever due to ability loss or involuntaery alignment change does not snowball the effect upwards unless the lost prereq is also a prereq for the upward effect.

Note. Read it a few times it might make sense after all.

(*)Inherent = some ability score increase, feat, or skill rank bonus usually gained through a Miracle/Wish spell.

 

[LokiDR]

KarinsDad, I believe you have misunderstood me.

The "virtual feat" rule is a rule. It just isn't a core rule. The exact result of what happens when you lose the pre reqs for a feat is a rule. What I was saying was that I was trying to stick to a strict interpretation of those rules.

By the rules, your type does not change when you are polymorphed, so that orc you refered to could become an acane archer by one interpretation of the rules. That is what I am doing, interpreting the rules to situation they obviously didn't anticipate.

The reason you lose the whole feat chain is because they all explictly require dex 13+. From a rules stand, if it is not a requirement, it isn't something you need. The word "dodge" is not erased, you still have the feat, you just can not use it right now.

Would I say a wizard currently in an dead-magic field would not be allowed to gain a PrC that said "able to cast 3rd level spells"? No, that is moronic.

I would look at all ability gain from the standpoint of "what would this character be able to do, healed, rested, and naked with no enviroment considered?" Perminent stat drain? Just get a restoration. It is only 4th level, so it is reasonable in an average game. Whatever state you are in when you level should make no difference if you have a reasonable expection that it really isn't going to last. Curse by the gods since birth, OK that is a different story.

I am not being inconsistant. The rules do not say you lose the feat, they say you can't use it. When you get a stat boosting item, you don't gain an inherent bonus, so it is relatively easy to blow away. A charater have any number of changes over a level. Are you going to keep an average?

That is my view of what the rules say.

In this case, I do not agree with the rules. Most of the games, I would allow skill points for high int through items. It isn't a problem for me. You want a PrC based on something that might die quickly, be my guest and don't complain when you lose all abilites of the class when your familar dies.

But I don't believe this forum covers what I would do for a percieved problem. I don't see conversations here about "how can I change this rule so it isn't so stupid", since that sounds like house rules. Am I wrong? There are stupid rules.

I don't want to get into a meta-forum debate, so I will just say this. If you are offended that I told you this is the rules forum, believe me that no offense was meant by it. I am simply trying to narrow the question from "is this stupid?" to "does this work under a strict interpretation of the rules?".

If you don't like my apology, sic the moderators on me. I don't feel I am being unreasonable.

 

[elockanllor]

I want to see these several "canonical" characters. Is that any relation to "iconic" or "published"?

Not "iconic" as in the example characters of the PHB but published by both WotC and other third-party companies. This topic don't quite mean enuf to me to go digging thru dozens of books to cite references that will in all likelihood be ignored anyways. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader if anyone else actually cares to look.

I just don't see all this extra bookkeeping for keeping up with a familiar. IME characters are much more likely to lose access to a feat from an ability drain than from one's familiar dying. Do other people really lose familiars more often than encountering undead, poisons, and diseases? Or is there a double-standard of ignoring feat prereq loses while paying close attention to PrC prereqs?

Since there is no reason to change the rule, what does the rule actually say? "...the master gains Alertness". Not "something like Alertness", not "+2 bonus to Listen and Spot". There is no room for interpretation here. It says what it says and "interpretations" to the otherwise are stretches of the imagination. Houserule it but don't confuse it for whats in the book.

That's my part, please reference the above if you have any questions

 

[KarinsDad]

I would look at all ability gain from the standpoint of "what would this character be able to do, healed, rested, and naked with no enviroment considered?" Perminent stat drain? Just get a restoration. It is only 4th level, so it is reasonable in an average game. Whatever state you are in when you level should make no difference if you have a reasonable expection that it really isn't going to last. Curse by the gods since birth, OK that is a different story.

But, does that really make sense from a rules point of view?

Should a Feebleminded Wizard be allowed to advance a level as either a Wizard, or any PrC that allows Wizard spell casting?

Does that make sense? Does he really have the ability to still cast spells?

Does it make any more sense that a character that lost his Dodge feat due to lack of Dex should be able to still take the Weightless Foot PrC which has prerequisites of Dodge and Mobility?

I too often take a strict or literal interpretation of the rules, but I try to intersperse common sense into it. If you cannot cast spells, for whatever reason, you should not be allowed to advance in a spell casting class.

If you have a cursed ring of opposite alignment on you, you are suddenly restricted from a wide variety of PrCs.

I don't want to get into a meta-forum debate, so I will just say this. If you are offended that I told you this is the rules forum, believe me that no offense was meant by it. I am simply trying to narrow the question from "is this stupid?" to "does this work under a strict interpretation of the rules?".

I didn't take offense. I just wanted to point out that differing interpretations do not necessarily mean that someone is "blowing off the rules". It can mean that, but when there is no clear rule, it usually doesn't.

 

[elockanllor]

You're setting yourself up for a hurtin' as a DM to allow this.

Consider that if, 2 years and 5 levels later, you have a bad guy squish that toad the player is likely to be *very* upset at the 5 class levels he effectively just lost.

The same problem just as easily occurs when your high-level Dwarven Defender gets the Shakes, loses some DEX, loses the Dodge feat, then loses access to the Dwarven Defender levels. Same thing. Even more likely to occur IMO.

There are some things in the game I'm willing to bend to make the game experience better. Still, I try not to confuse my houserules with what the PHB actually states. This thread started about the true nature of the Alterness feat and while we might be inclined to define it as a "virtual" feat the book treats it like any other feat you normally acquire. Are we going to spend days arguing about the usage of "gains"?