Do familiars grant "real" Alertness?

[smetzger]

If this was a legal court, I believe the strictest interpretation would be that, in a minimalist case, neither the familar nor the ranger work, because the are not "feats", they are class abilites.

for familiar "...master gains Alertness"

P.22 "Every character gains one feat at 1st level ..."

Seems pretty clear that it is an actual Feat that you get when you have your familiar within arms reach. Both use the word "gains".

 

[Greybar]

You're setting yourself up for a hurtin' as a DM to allow this.

Consider that if, 2 years and 5 levels later, you have a bad guy squish that toad the player is likely to be *very* upset at the 5 class levels he effectively just lost.

I'd say in the name of a fun game you're probably better off having the argument and stopping him from going down the road, than having the *huge* argument later.

Either that or let him take 1 level of the class, squish the toad intentionally in the next adventure, and then see if he really wants to take another level in the PrC without taking Alertness for real...

John

 

[drnuncheon]

Looks like a feat-granting item would fall under "special ability" quite easily, I don't see why folks are having problems with this one.

Because the character does not possess the feat as a special ability.

Besides, I don't want to have to deal with PlayerWhine(tm) when they lose their Sword of Cleaving and I'm suddenly a "mean DM" for crippling their character. Not that my current batch would do that, but then again they wouldn't try to use an item as a prerequisite either.

Do you really want to keep track of which skill ranks were gained with normal bonus Int points (i.e. the character has 16 Int), at all the different levels?
You could loss Int due to Feeblemind or some other effect. Would you rule that the character has no ranks in his skills? In the case of Feeblemind, would you rule that he has 1 rank per level (+3 bonus at first level)?

OK, good point.

The fact is that you have 3 basic choices with regard to skills:
1) Keep track of where all skills are acquired, drop skills as their "prerequisite int" is lost.
2) Do this only for points above and beyond normal (i.e. acquired from magical items or other external sources).
3) Do not worry about it. Unlike feats, blow off when, how, where, you acquired skill ranks. You just have them.
To me, #3 is the easiest.

You forgot #4 - don't give permanent bonuses for stats gained from non-permanent sources (which is just as easy, if not easier). Headbands of Intellect are good enough already with the bonus to Int skills, save DCs, and spells.

Saying you're wearing a headband of intellect (or any other stat-boosting item for that matter) 24/7 is akin to saying "I'm sleeping in my full plate" anyway - it's pure metagaming without any consideration of the actuality of the situation. What, you never even brush your hair? Never take it off to wring the sweat out? I think you're asking for a fungal infection and Cha penalties...

A ring, I might buy never taking off...but that's about it.

J

 

[Storm Raven]

You're setting yourself up for a hurtin' as a DM to allow this.

Consider that if, 2 years and 5 levels later, you have a bad guy squish that toad the player is likely to be *very* upset at the 5 class levels he effectively just lost.

I'd say in the name of a fun game you're probably better off having the argument and stopping him from going down the road, than having the *huge* argument later.

Either that or let him take 1 level of the class, squish the toad intentionally in the next adventure, and then see if he really wants to take another level in the PrC without taking Alertness for real...

This only becomes a problem if you don't tell the player up front that this is the way things work. If you let him know that he will lose access to class abilities dependent upon prerequisites gained via this sort of method, then he probably won't complain if it happens.

 

[Crothian]

This only becomes a problem if you don't tell the player up front that this is the way things work. If you let him know that he will lose access to class abilities dependent upon prerequisites gained via this sort of method, then he probably won't complain if it happens.

Because people are that way. If you explain beforehand that something bad might happen due to their descions, when they still go forth and something bad happens they understand and are fine with the results. Right.....

Explain all you want, when the time comes he's going to complain. He might not have leg to stand on, but it won't stob the complaining.

 

[Storm Raven]

Because people are that way. If you explain beforehand that something bad might happen due to their descions, when they still go forth and something bad happens they understand and are fine with the results. Right.....

Explain all you want, when the time comes he's going to complain. He might not have leg to stand on, but it won't stob the complaining.

I've never seen the sort of problem you are describing come up in the groups I have played with. If someone walks into a situation with their eyes open, they don't complain if the potential negative consequences of that situation come to fruition. (With the caveat, unless the DM is clearly trying to screw them for no apparent reason).

 

[Voadam]

The issue is not limited to familiars that can die. Any prc with a prereq feat that requires a certain stat is vulnerable. What happens to duelist who is hit for permanent dex drain and no longer qualifies for the dodge feat? What does he lose from his class? Class abilities, skill, save bonuses, hit points? These are all aspects of the class and entry to the class is the only thing which requires the feat which requires dex. It says under the feat rules that feats can not be used if the prereq is not made, but I don't remember anything besides the sword and fist ranger quote about prc requirements. Does anybody have a DMG reference off hand? I don't see anything in the srd.

On the familiar issue. I believe the language is clear the familiar grants the character the feat when he is within arms reach, so the caster is considered to have the feat. The familiar does not have alertness, he grants it to the caster.

 

[LokiDR]

The issue is not limited to familiars that can die. Any prc with a prereq feat that requires a certain stat is vulnerable. What happens to duelist who is hit for permanent dex drain and no longer qualifies for the dodge feat? What does he lose from his class? Class abilities, skill, save bonuses, hit points? These are all aspects of the class and entry to the class is the only thing which requires the feat which requires dex. It says under the feat rules that feats can not be used if the prereq is not made, but I don't remember anything besides the sword and fist ranger quote about prc requirements. Does anybody have a DMG reference off hand? I don't see anything in the srd.

On the familiar issue. I believe the language is clear the familiar grants the character the feat when he is within arms reach, so the caster is considered to have the feat. The familiar does not have alertness, he grants it to the caster.

If you have the feat, but can not use it, you still have the feat. This means that you still have the pre-reqs for the class. If the familar leaves 5ft from you, you lose all abilites because the feat has gone away. See the difference? The same argument goes for items that grant feats. Poison doesn't take the knowlege from of the trick, only the ability to pull it off.

Do you want to deal with variable class levels on a round by round basis? A good fireball, a bad save, and your familar is toast. Now what? Also, I do believe the familar must be looking around, not under full concealment in some protected area.

The language on the familar ability is poor, thus allowing you to make this purely semantic arguement. In any case, I think it is more trouble then it is worth in the long run. Players will complain about a loss that large.

 

[KarinsDad]

You forgot #4 - don't give permanent bonuses for stats gained from non-permanent sources (which is just as easy, if not easier). Headbands of Intellect are good enough already with the bonus to Int skills, save DCs, and spells.

You missed the point completely.

Even if you add in #4, it doesn't matter. You still have to decide between #1 and #3 for your game. Either you blow skill loses off when the characters Int drops to 6 (#3 the simple version), or you have to keep track of which skills are acquired from which Int points (#1 the bookkeeping version), even negative Int points (since your Int can be below 10).

So, if you are deciding between #1 and #3 anyway, you might as well allow items to give bonuses to skills because either you are keeping track of all of that data anyway, or you are not. From a bookkeeping perspective, it is basically irrelevant (i.e. #2 is just as hard as #1). Either you are keeping track of a bunch of data anyway, or you are keeping track of no data.


To me, the simplest thing is to say:

You gained level. What's your current Int? Ok, you have X skill points.

And as GM, you do not care how the Int got there.

Ditto for prerequisites.

 

[KarinsDad]

Here is my problem with the entire loss discussion:


I have a character. It doesn't matter what feats he has. It doesn't matter which PrCs he has.

What matters is that the moment his Dex (or Str or Con or some other ability score) drops below 13 (or some other number), he loses part of his current feat tree.

If not having the feat disallows abilities of a PrC or other class ability, then he suddenly loses those abilities as well (if you rule that way).

Plus, you have to decide which ones he loses and which ones he does not lose. If he is no longer eligible for the PrC, there is a decent argument that he would lose BAB, saves, special abilities, hit points, etc., etc., etc.


What a nightmare!


How can anyone construe that as being fun?


It is much simpler to just say, screw the WotC rule that if you lose the prerequisite, you lose the feat. I think they fubared when they came up with this rule.

And, screw adapting that rule to skills or PrCs.

Otherwise, you are just begging for trouble in your game. IMO.


On the topic of allowing alertness (or items) to be used as a prerequisite, if you blow off the stupid loss rule in the first place, then you might as well allow them as prerequisites for consistency sake. Again, IMO.