Do familiars level up ?
- Thread starter Pumpkin
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jefgorbach
First Post
Yes.
Familiars are essentially "equipment" and thus do NOT gain a share of the Party Xp/treasure, however can/should receive anything rightfully earned by themselves; advancing as an Magical Beast per RAW. Likewise their minimum Int:6 means they optionally advance either by increasing their racial hit dice/skills or by selecting Class(s) per RAW regarding Improving Monsters (ie magical beasts) -- presumably with a current maximum level equal to their Master's-2 like other cohorts.
Familiars are essentially "equipment" and thus do NOT gain a share of the Party Xp/treasure, however can/should receive anything rightfully earned by themselves; advancing as an Magical Beast per RAW. Likewise their minimum Int:6 means they optionally advance either by increasing their racial hit dice/skills or by selecting Class(s) per RAW regarding Improving Monsters (ie magical beasts) -- presumably with a current maximum level equal to their Master's-2 like other cohorts.
jefgorbach said:
the problem I'd the rules don't work like this. familiars are inevitable cr 1/3 or cr 1/4 creature they either use their original stats to accomplish things or they use stats drives from their master eg half their masters hps. familiars Are not animal companions.
Volaran
First Post
Agreed.
Some of the confusion may stem from the common varieties of familiars being listed in the Bestiary under 'Familiars' rather than 'Animals'.
If you intend to advance them as normal animals, that's fine, but they would not be familars. A familiar's advancement is based on that of its master, the rules for which can be found in the Wizard class listing.
Some of the confusion may stem from the common varieties of familiars being listed in the Bestiary under 'Familiars' rather than 'Animals'.
If you intend to advance them as normal animals, that's fine, but they would not be familars. A familiar's advancement is based on that of its master, the rules for which can be found in the Wizard class listing.
jefgorbach
First Post
Correct ... RAW states "A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard.”
Since nothing in the Familiar section (either specifically or implicably) states they are incapable of self-improvement, they would advance according the to Improving Monsters section like other magical beasts -- which states it could do so “by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template” and that “these methods are not mutually exclusive— it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels."
Since nothing in the Familiar section (either specifically or implicably) states they are incapable of self-improvement, they would advance according the to Improving Monsters section like other magical beasts -- which states it could do so “by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template” and that “these methods are not mutually exclusive— it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels."
jefgorbach said:
huh they advance according to the familiar table. everything connected to the familiars advancement is due to their magical connection to the wizard they serve. they are in fact incapable of self improvement. familiars are not cohorts or animal companions they are not intended to do anything outside of what the table gives them.
Volaran
First Post
I'm going to have to agree with Mojo Rat on this one. This isn't a case of 'The Rules don't specifically say I _can't_ do this, so I totally can!'. The specific rules on familiars trump the general rules on magical beasts. They are a class feature with a very specific progression, which is tied to that of their master, much like an animal companion.
That said, if a particular GM wanted to allow you to treat a familiar as a cohort rather than using the standard familiar rules, as jefgorbach seems to be suggesting, that is up to them. Personally, I would probably recommend using one or the other, but not both.
That said, if a particular GM wanted to allow you to treat a familiar as a cohort rather than using the standard familiar rules, as jefgorbach seems to be suggesting, that is up to them. Personally, I would probably recommend using one or the other, but not both.
jefgorbach
First Post
Volaran is correct: the specific overrides the general.
The Familiar section specifically states “For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.”
All of the core sample familiars begin with less than a full hit die (unlike their Master who has a full 1d4) clearly indicating they CAN gain additional hit dice and since the Familiar section does not specify otherwise, they follow the general rules for Improving Monsters which states each hit die gained increases a magical beast’s Fort and Reflex saving throws by one, provides an additional (2+ Int mod) skill points, and may increase its base size (with associated changes).
Thus unless I missed an errata or Pathfinder seriously changed it, -ALL- Familiars have:
* a type of Magical Beast
* 10-sided Hit Dice
* a base attack bonus equal to their Master's BAB. (instead of their total hit dice)
* have half their Master's total hit points regardless of their hit dice.
* use the better of their own or Master's saving throws. As magical beasts, they have Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. However they use the better of their own or Master’s skill ranks; applying their own modifiers.
* provide their Master with a specific ability (such as a skill bonus) while within 1-mile of him.
* gain additional abilities detailed within the Familiar section based upon their Master’s class level
* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
Therefore the question is not whether Familiars can improve, but to what degree. RAW clearly states they can earn/gain additional racial hit dice and templates. It likewise states the Master must take the Improved Familiar feat if/when a template is applied.
I suggest this feat be expanded to allow familiars to become Classed like other sentient creatures of comparable intelligence (6-15 depending upon their Master’s level), imposing a Class level-cap equal to their Master’s level-2 per the cohort rules to prevent the possibility of the familiar overshadowing its Master, allowing the familiar to optionally retain excess experience points unassigned until their Master levels further or be applied to additional Hit dice with the corresponding benefits.
For example Apprentice Harold summons a hawk to be his familiar, gain a +3 on his own listen checks whenever its within 1-mile. In exchange, the hawk transforms into a magical beast, gaining the standard abilities. As such, it uses its newly discovered abilities and racial skills to help Harold navigate a number of low-level situations, and help him avoid a number of what would have been overwhelming odds. Such events eventually compound into enough XP for the hawk to gain another hit die, improving its Listening skill by 2pts.
Eventually Harold reaches level 3 and selects the Improved Familiar feat to imbue his hawk with the Celestial template, providing it with Acid Resistance 5, Cold 5, Electricity 5; SR 7; and allowing it to use Smite Good once per day.
By this time, the hawk has gained sufficient Xp to increase another hit die, but instead decides (having an Int:7) to become a Rogue, applying its initial 32 skill points learning to fly (move) silently, search, and improve its Spot/Listen skills. It selects Improve Natural Attack for its first level feat to increase its talon damage from 1d4-2 to 1d6-2.
Harold spends the next several months scribing scrolls between rather mundane adventures, during which the hawk makes some lucky sneak-attacks earning enough Xp to advance further. However Harold has not, so rather than increasing its racial hit dice, the hawk opts to leave the points unassigned until Harold gains a level so it further its own career, gaining the rogue's evasion class ability.
The Familiar section specifically states “For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.”
All of the core sample familiars begin with less than a full hit die (unlike their Master who has a full 1d4) clearly indicating they CAN gain additional hit dice and since the Familiar section does not specify otherwise, they follow the general rules for Improving Monsters which states each hit die gained increases a magical beast’s Fort and Reflex saving throws by one, provides an additional (2+ Int mod) skill points, and may increase its base size (with associated changes).
Thus unless I missed an errata or Pathfinder seriously changed it, -ALL- Familiars have:
* a type of Magical Beast
* 10-sided Hit Dice
* a base attack bonus equal to their Master's BAB. (instead of their total hit dice)
* have half their Master's total hit points regardless of their hit dice.
* use the better of their own or Master's saving throws. As magical beasts, they have Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. However they use the better of their own or Master’s skill ranks; applying their own modifiers.
* provide their Master with a specific ability (such as a skill bonus) while within 1-mile of him.
* gain additional abilities detailed within the Familiar section based upon their Master’s class level
* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
Therefore the question is not whether Familiars can improve, but to what degree. RAW clearly states they can earn/gain additional racial hit dice and templates. It likewise states the Master must take the Improved Familiar feat if/when a template is applied.
I suggest this feat be expanded to allow familiars to become Classed like other sentient creatures of comparable intelligence (6-15 depending upon their Master’s level), imposing a Class level-cap equal to their Master’s level-2 per the cohort rules to prevent the possibility of the familiar overshadowing its Master, allowing the familiar to optionally retain excess experience points unassigned until their Master levels further or be applied to additional Hit dice with the corresponding benefits.
For example Apprentice Harold summons a hawk to be his familiar, gain a +3 on his own listen checks whenever its within 1-mile. In exchange, the hawk transforms into a magical beast, gaining the standard abilities. As such, it uses its newly discovered abilities and racial skills to help Harold navigate a number of low-level situations, and help him avoid a number of what would have been overwhelming odds. Such events eventually compound into enough XP for the hawk to gain another hit die, improving its Listening skill by 2pts.
Eventually Harold reaches level 3 and selects the Improved Familiar feat to imbue his hawk with the Celestial template, providing it with Acid Resistance 5, Cold 5, Electricity 5; SR 7; and allowing it to use Smite Good once per day.
By this time, the hawk has gained sufficient Xp to increase another hit die, but instead decides (having an Int:7) to become a Rogue, applying its initial 32 skill points learning to fly (move) silently, search, and improve its Spot/Listen skills. It selects Improve Natural Attack for its first level feat to increase its talon damage from 1d4-2 to 1d6-2.
Harold spends the next several months scribing scrolls between rather mundane adventures, during which the hawk makes some lucky sneak-attacks earning enough Xp to advance further. However Harold has not, so rather than increasing its racial hit dice, the hawk opts to leave the points unassigned until Harold gains a level so it further its own career, gaining the rogue's evasion class ability.
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