D&D General Do I need an attitude adjustment? (They're gonna nova the BBEG)

[jayoungr]

I'm in the process of wrapping up a campaign that has lasted all year, and I'm kind of dreading the last few sessions. I could use some outside perspective on what I need to do about that. I'm going to try to put this in general terms to start with, but I'm sure I'll leave out some important detail or other, so I'll add more detail if needed.

Note: I'm running a published adventure, so my options for reworking things are limited. But I'm not sure it matter much even if this were a homebrew, as we're at the stage where there isn't much for the PCs to learn; they just need to confront the BBEG.

My group is eight players--way too big, I know. I had my doubts about that from the start, but I thought I could stay on top of it by just making the fights tougher. That's had mixed success; but more importantly, I didn't anticipate the change in interpersonal dynamics the larger group would cause. About half the group used to game together decades ago, back in high school, and I feel like they're reverting to an immature mentality now that they're all together again. I've seen some of the original group change their playstyle with the return of these new people. They're much more prone to mouth off to the BBEG and generally act murderhoboish than they were when the group was smaller.

As of now, the PCs have entered the BBEG's domain, which is large. Their plan is to explore the place thoroughly and loot everything of value they can find, camping whenever they get low on resources (using Leomund's Tiny Hut). Then, when they feel like they've plundered all the good stuff, they'll take a long rest so they're fresh and then take on the big guy.

I had tried to set up a much more tense situation. I originally thought they would confront the BBEG sooner rather than later, and I'd envisioned a dramatic standoff with him that would bring in some character-specific plot threads that have been building for a while. I actually do think the players of the characters those threads would affect would enjoy having those threads become important, but they're caught up with the energy of these new folks and are now actively avoiding any situation that will make it easy for me to bring in these ideas. (For reasons that would take too long to explain, I can't make the BBEG come to them at this stage.)

Anyway, the main thing is that I feel like the players completely have the upper hand, and I'm not sure what is the best way to respond to that. How do I balance what's fun for my players with what's fun for me?

It's not that I want to kill PCs, but I'd like to make the climax of the campaign tense and memorable. I'd like the players to have to use abilities they don't usually have to pull out, and maybe be inventive sometimes. And yeah, I'd like for the bad guys to get some good hits in, to show off their own abilities and make the situation seem serious. But then on the other hand, it seems like players always remember combats as more tense than they look from my side of the screen, so maybe I'm overestimating the importance of that aspect.

I know that getting attached to the idea of specific scenes happening is always dangerous, but do I try to salvage any of the showdown I'd hoped for, or do I just let it go?

Do I try to make things harder for them? Try to bring back some of the roleplay? Or is that me trying to impose my will and take away their fun?

How do I psych myself up to run a BBEG who's going to go down like an absolute chump when confronted with eight fresh PCs? I'm actively hating the thought right now, but maybe I just need to get over myself and learn to like it. I remember someone saying that the goal of being a DM is not to win, but to lose with style. I'm just not sure even how to do that when I feel so completely outmatched.

Sorry for the long post. Any thoughts or advice will be carefully considered.

 

[Alexander Moonbeam]

What adventure are you running? We might be able to help more if you specified.

Regardless, all good BBEGs should have minions. Lots of minions. Some should come charging out before the PC's reach their master. He knows those ones will die, but they'll force the PC's to use up some spell slots. Then, when the PC's confront the BBEG directly, he ought to be accompanied by his most elite personal guard. That'll help him make up for his disadvantage in action economy, and it will discourage the PC's from focusing all their fire on him immediately, and, most importantly, it'll make the fight feel more epic and grand.

 

[Lanefan]

All I can suggest is just to run what you're gonna run and let them interact with it however they like. If you get your showdown, fine. If not, also fine - says he, who has had the same thing happen many a time, to the point where I'm just used to it now

Hard to give ideas without knowing specifics, but maybe some of those character-based plot threads could be raised via the treasure etc. they find afterwards? That said: it seems to me that you've painted yourself into a corner by hard-deciding that this BBEG fight will be the end of the campaign; as this leaves you no room for future developments and kinda forces you to cram everything in right now. IMO this might be a mistake, particularly if the players signal they want to continue on with things after the BBEG is defeated.

 

[Richards]

So they've planned to camp out and get everybody up to full strength before taking on the BBEG. Okay, that's a good plan. But is it a guaranteed success? Is the BBEG aware of the PCs tramping around in his kingdom, looting everything of value? Does he have servitors (or spells) capable of seeking out the PCs where they might be camping out? Could their plans be thwarted by a sudden discovery and a big fight at a point in time they were not necessarily prepared for?

Johnathan

 

[prabe]

Wow. Bummer you're not enjoying this as much as you thought/hoped.

Also, yeah: eight players is probably too many--six is my max, and I consider four or five ideal.

Commiseration out of the way, on to plausibly helpful thoughts.

First, yeah, you're probably going to need to readjust your attitude, especially if you're not able to alter the BBEG (or don't have the time, or aren't comfortable doing it, or whatever). That BBEG almost certainly isn't built to fight eight characters--more than four, probably--and is going to go down like a soft sack. You might have to give up on the dramatic showdown you were hoping for.

It's also sounding as though your players (and/or their characters) are being extraordinarily proactive, here--that might be the only thing you can maybe do anything about. They seem awfully confident in their ability to rest: if they're snug in the Tiny Hut, the combination of Dispel Magic and, well, any AOE attack will serve as one hell of a wake-up call. Doesn't have to be the BBEG, but it'd be a terrifying way for him to say, "Howdy."

Much of the rest of what you're less happy about is about interpersonal dynamics at the gaming table, and I don't have as much in the way of advice on that. I will say that published adventures seem ... open, or mabye vulnerable, to murderhobo players, in my experience. There at least don't seem to be as many levers/knobs/dials/switches you can manipulate to make that approach less appealing.

Good luck.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For any solo BBEG I give them max HP, AC +2, and maybe a couple extra tidbits here and there. Otherwise, terrain, minions, etc. are great assets. Hit and run tactics to whittle the PCs resources down are also good.

Now, for NPC-type BBEGs, at tier 4 we will also grant them boons. In our last campaign, the 20th-level wizard BBEG had the Irresistible Offense boon which allowed him to bypass damage resistance. I LOVED the totem warrior-barbarian player's expression when he was raging but continued to take FULL damage LOL!!! Or the fire-resistant Dragonborn who felt all the burn of the wizard's fire-based spells. Sigh.. it still brings a smile to my face.

Anyway, to address your point, your job is not to have foes for your PCs to walk all over. Drama, tension, and danger is what makes a battle memorable IMO. If the end of an adventure is a cake-walk, IME this is more disappointing and a let down. When I played in CoS, our party of 10th-level PCs beat the crap out of Straud with no great threat to ourselves. It was pathetic, really.

And either nerf things like Leomund's Hut (what the F*CK were the designers thinking there!) or put in foes who can dispel it, etc. Don't allow them to rest in the BBEG's lair. A short rest, maybe, but not a long rest!

 

[J-H]

Just because it's a pre-made doesn't mean you can't change things.

#1: Change the bad guy. Give him two turns per round of combat, during which he takes different types of actions (turn #1 melee, turn #2 cast), PLUS legendary actions. Give him more HP, better resistances, and some better debuff options than whatever he came with.

#2: Change the setup. If the party is looting their way through his domain, have him evacuate the loot. Have him call in reinforcements. Wizards or devils or whatnot... anything with Dispel can kick them out of their Leomund's Tiny Hut. Make them feel like they have to really work to hide their presence to avoid this harassment.

#3: Have the NPCs comment on how the party is behaving, and withdraw support/demand they change actions/etc. Potentially, have a rival party try for the boss in the meantime... and fail, and perhaps get turned into charmed/undead minions that make things harder for the party because they lollygagged around.

#4: The BBEG moves forward with his plans. They arrive to find that he actually departed via portal a day ago for the City of Good Guys to carry out his master plan, and now they have to rush to confront him, on his terms, away from where everybody planned for this to happen.

You can set up some fairly simple systems for this to happen by measuring time and having some deadlines or random rolls with higher probability as time goes past for reinforcements, him departing, etc.

Edit: As mentioned above, battle minions. Maybe his Lair actions summon swarms of bats or spiders, or 1d4+1 mephits. Maybe his Fireballs all summon a Fire Elemental when they go off. Whatever's thematically appropriate.

 

[MarkB]

If the bad guys are aware of them resting in the dungeon, just have them sit outside the hut playing rock music and flashing disco lights so that it's impossible for the PCs to gain the benefits of a long rest. Eventually they'll either have to break out or start suffering levels of exhaustion.

 

[Oofta]

I have several thoughts on the whole tiny hut issue. First, why are you assuming no one knows they're there? If they do know they're there, why are they not preparing counter attacks? Camping out in enemy territory should not have any guarantee of safety. I don't know the details of the environment but there are nearly endless options, everything from a simple dispel magic to do an ambush to sealing off the area the PCs are in to burying them in a cave-in. Block off all exits except for the one that leads to the room of death and collapse the tunnels behind them (cast a hallow spell to block teleportation first).

When it comes to the BBEG there are minions (as others have stated) but you might want to consider splitting the party. They've effectively given the BBEG 8+ hours to prep so have traps set up. Collapse tunnels as they're marching along or slam impenetrable doors so some of them have to find a way around. Set up ambushes, illusionary doubles, make a goblin look like the BBEG with a spell so they waste their big attacks.

When it does come to the final fight have enemies come in waves, and set up the environment to favor team bad guy. There's a lot of things you can do - but allowing the PCs to rest whenever they want (along with 8 players) is a root of a lot of your problem. Set a timer somehow, whether that's a volcano about to erupt or a doomsday clock/ritual countdown if you don't want to stop tiny hut shenanigan's.

EDIT: I also just nerf Tiny Hut a bit, no attacks or spells can go out of the hut. Not something I would change mid-campaign, but something you might want to consider in the future.

 

[DemoMonkey]

Put a doppleganger decoy at the spot they expect to the BBEG to be, with all the support they need. Let the PC's go Nova.

Then when they are all clustered together giving each other celebratory high fives with their resources expended, the "I didn't get here by being stupid" actual BBEG appears.