Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Raven Crowking]

Buying and selling magic items is the default in 3rd ed. See the 3.5 DMG page 142. The section headed 'Magic Items'.

Thank Crom I just stayed with the 3.0 books and the SRD, then. Although, I note the words "might exist" when they talk about magic item shops, hence not default. Otherwise, good point.

 

[Raven Crowking]

If you swing a sword at your enemy, you might or might not hit him. When you hit him, it might do a little damage, or a lot. Does that make a sword an unpredictable technology? If I fire a black powder rifle, it might fire, or it might misfire and fail to work. Does that make rifles a non predictable technology?

I think you need to go back and rethink some of your assumptions here.

Yes, because that is exactly like, say, sprouting grass and flowers all over your body as a result of using a wand, having a seed become a purple worm that attacks you or a gigantic tree, or becoming permanently gaseous. Yup. Nothing Bizarro about your contention at all.

 

[scriven]

I personally don't like the idea of going to a magic shop that has anything in the DMG available for sale - just don't make plain sense to me. When I played in Shackled City there was a shop that had a few items and the DM made random rolls every so often to see what had been sold/bought by the shopkeeper. I don't have a problem with this kind of shop and sometimes an item appeared that everyone was drooling over but was way out of our price range.

I think a persuasive argument has been made in favor of this kind of shop. Some adventurers will want to sell items (e.g. class-specific items they can't use). Other adventurers will want to buy those items. It's simple economics.

I haven't seen an in-game argument for why it would be reasonable to pick a specific item out of the books and expect to find it in a shop. It seems highly unlikely, in fact, that a given vendor, at a given time, would have an arbitrary item in stock. (A big city might have several vendors, giving more chances for an item to turn up, but still, it would be by no means a sure thing.)

 

[Reynard]

The worst mistakle I ever made running a game was when I wanted to eliminate the ned to "loot" so the campaign was mission based and when each mission was complete, the archmage (eviul dragon in disguise) let the PCs "buy" items from his vault (hoard) based on what the expected treasure from the mission's encounters would be worth. Moreover, I gave them free reign over items in the DMG, so long as they could afford them.

My intent was to make sure the party stayed within the "suggested wealth by level" guidelines. The result was a huge, imbalanced mess. And, worse yet, since the PCs were much more powerful than their levels would indicate (because they cherry picked the perfect items for their characters and for their team tactics) I had to up the CR of encounters, which meant they got even bigger rewards, and so on...

I tried to eliminate the problem by having the archmage/dragon kick out the PCs and become an enemy. The campaign collapsed anyway and I almost didn't run D&D ever again.

Now, I prefer lower magic, slower advancement and less "build" -- so I am going back to 1E.

 

[BryonD]

From the DMG 3.5 page 142 -
Originally Posted by DMG
The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought or sold much as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high- level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer [sic] (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares.

I still say there is a vast amount of room between this description and the stereotype of a supermarket style "magic shop".

Default D&D does assume that a character with the means should be able to obtain more or less any magic item, and that finding someone to sell it to them is one standard mechanism. But the text you have quoted simply indicates that there will likely be high end magic brokers in wealthy areas in a default D&D world and that low end magic items can show up as the special back room extras in a more common store. Neither the idea of a high dollar broker being able to hook you up with the "custom item" within a month or so or a standard weapon shop having 2 or 4 +1 items in the back are outside of the idea presented in the DMG. And neither of these ideas imply a supermarket pick-and-pay concept. And, IMO, neither of them come close to disturbing the spirit of D&D. To the contrary, it seems quite obvious that such as this would exist in a world that worked as defined in the core books.

 

[darkseraphim]

For a little positivity, I thought I'd mention one campaign where the idea of magic shops was not only integral, it was also perfect for flavor and the main source of player entertainment.

This was an HP Lovecraft's Dreamlands campaign. The characters were locked away in insane asylums, trying to still complete missions to save the world after no one would believe them. This involved linking up in the Dreamlands where Cthulhoid entities have some of their consciousness invested.

Item shops were everywhere. Later, characters learned how to dream up items, literally. You want a sword? Concentrate on the idea and watch it materialize in your hand. No problem.

However, in times of stress or terror, there were nightmare checks. If you had a sanity / nightmare failure, your sword might turn into a serpent or a scorpion tail (or whatever you're phobic of) and attack you. Conversely, if you were a very powerful dreamer, you could not only keep your sanity, but force nightmare checks on enemies.

Things get interesting as the characters want more powerful items. You want a sword of Deep One slaying? Sure, but that requires you to dream about Deep Ones, and dreaming about them beckons their attention. Hope you get that sword quickly, because you'll be needing it.

Not 100% applicable to D&D (although it would make a great side campaign), but an example of a gameworld where I feel magic shops should absolutely exist. Heroic fantasy, though? Not so much. The best treasures are earned through blood, not gold.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I once had in my campaign a really nice (but evil) sword that had belonged to the BBEG in ages past. The PCs found the sword, accidently awoke the BBEG, and used the sword to defeat (but not slay) the BBEG. What did the party do?

Naturally, they sold the sword.

To the minions of the BBEG.

That they knew to be the minions of the BBEG.

That offered them a modest sum now, and much more later, but wanted the sword now.

That, of course, never paid the much larger sum.

That, of course, gave the evil powerful sword to the BBEG.



The only difference between what happened IMC, and what happens in a "magic shop" campaign, is that in the "magic shop" campaign there is a middle man.

 

[Henry]

I haven't seen an in-game argument for why it would be reasonable to pick a specific item out of the books and expect to find it in a shop. It seems highly unlikely, in fact, that a given vendor, at a given time, would have an arbitrary item in stock.

Heck, even in the modern day, your local supermarket/hardware store/megastore won't have EVERY possible brand of item you might want. However, I think a lot of DMs (like myself, at times) just assume that a given shops has what the PC wants, and glosses over it, to save time and argument, more than anything.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yes, because that is exactly like, say, sprouting grass and flowers all over your body as a result of using a wand, having a seed become a purple worm that attacks you or a gigantic tree, or becoming permanently gaseous. Yup. Nothing Bizarro about your contention at all.

You asked about potion miscability. Which is an entirely predictable element. You know how to trigger it, and the range of outcomes it produces. It is easy to avoid it. If you want to get all up in a lather over a couple of items that you didn't actually mention in the question I was responding to, that seems entirely silly on your part.

Further, you seem to now be hanging your hat on all of two items in 1e. If you want to hitch your wagons to the bag of beans, and the wand of wonder, then you are hanging on a slender (and not really relevant) thread. There are at least 500 completely predictable, standardized items listed for each of those. Which do you think relfects the "spirit" of the 1e magic item more? The two relatively obscure and little used exceptions, or the thousand plus predictable regular items that completely dominated the treasure troves of published adventures?

 

[Numion]

Yes, because that is exactly like, say, sprouting grass and flowers all over your body as a result of using a wand, having a seed become a purple worm that attacks you or a gigantic tree, or becoming permanently gaseous. Yup. Nothing Bizarro about your contention at all.

Well, 3E has about the same amount of random (unpredictable) magic items that 1E has, so I don't see your claim about 1E magic more unpredictable by nature as having much basis.

3E has the wan.. sorry, rod of wonder, deck of many things, etc .. where you have to roll on a table. Whoop-dee-doo .. in both editions 99% is perfectly predictable. Why make a sweeping claim on that 1%?