D&D 5E Do most striker builds weaken a party?

[spectacle]

Depends on the party.

If you have 18 AC, and the enemy goes to attack the guy with 16 AC, then that's not helping.

If you have 18 AC, and the enemy goes to attack the guy with 20 AC and heavy armor mastery, then you did help.

That still depends. If the 20 AC guy keeps running out of hit dice while the 18 AC guy never spends any of his, that is not optimal use of resources and potentially a problem for the party if it ends up shortening their effective adventuring day.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I have a secret for you.

Avoiding being attacked (hiding) does not help the party. Avoiding being hit (wasting attacks) does.

Any monster that can't find the rogue, but can find somebody else to whack, that's not a net gain for the party as a whole. One important job for any party member is to offer his or hers hit points as a buffer, so that nobody goes down.

A rogue that hides in order to pull off awesome damage spikes, that's a helpful ability (sadly, I don't think 5E rogues can do this).

A rogue that simply hides to save his own skin, that is what I would call a trap ability. It looks fantastic from the individual's point of view, but it's actually worthless (in straight-up combat) from the party's point of view.

I have a secret for you: there are other scenarios than straight up combat, where your calculation is more or less accurate.
If a rogue or ranger however can somehow scout, you may start combat prepared resulting in an action advantage. Especially when you can lay an ambush.
Here surprise rules and disadvantage on heavy armor stealth checks may prove a little problematic. I would however give advantage/inspiration to make up for it.

I would also rule, that the first sign of combat may be the first attack of a hidden creature. All other defenders may check for surprise by rolling perception vs passive stealth of everyone, giving advantage when appropriate. All who have not taken the first shot now toll initiative with advantage. Those who took their first shot roll with disadvantage.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I have a secret for you.

Avoiding being attacked (hiding) does not help the party. Avoiding being hit (wasting attacks) does.

Any monster that can't find the rogue, but can find somebody else to whack, that's not a net gain for the party as a whole. One important job for any party member is to offer his or hers hit points as a buffer, so that nobody goes down.

A rogue that hides in order to pull off awesome damage spikes, that's a helpful ability (sadly, I don't think 5E rogues can do this).

A rogue that simply hides to save his own skin, that is what I would call a trap ability. It looks fantastic from the individual's point of view, but it's actually worthless (in straight-up combat) from the party's point of view.

Wait, what? D&D isn't just a recurring series of combats after combat arena style. Well, not the norm anyway. That's hardly a trap ability if it grants benefits that affect the party in other scenarios (like being able to scout, retrieve items unseen, etc). And even if D&D were nothing but combat, it is not every PCs job to use their HP as a buffer. My wizard looks at you straight up scared. How about this. How about the rogue using his hiding to get a surprise attack the next round, attacking with advantage (and auto crit for assassins) and sneak attack damage? Yeah, he or she's not using their HP as a soak, but they are helping the party in other ways (mainly damage output). Yes, 5e rogues can do this. The gaming session we just did last weekend had the 6th level rogue do over 50 points of damage on a crit sneak attack. Way more than any other PC.

 

[mellored]

That still depends. If the 20 AC guy keeps running out of hit dice while the 18 AC guy never spends any of his, that is not optimal use of resources and potentially a problem for the party if it ends up shortening their effective adventuring day.

True. Hit dice are spread out, meaning everyone wants to step in front now in then, if only briefly.

But things like healing spells are better spent on the 20 AC guy.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

It's always interesting to me the different ways people visualize natural environments and the way to model them in the game. In my own games, most of the players assume that any missile fire in a wooded area is going to be, at minimum, half cover, and longer shots are assumed to be either 3/4 or total cover.

I have found that even at the same table people visualize outdoor scenes differently, even if I draw a map. I suspect that much of this occurs because my table has people who grew up all over (Texas, New Jersey, Idaho, Colorado). Our recollections of trudging through the woods as kids are all very different. This is why I try (and sometimes fail) to clearly state at the beginning of an encounter what offers covers and to what degree. It probably complicates matters that I do not treat all forested terrain the same. Big ole trees with widely separately boles and minimal undergrowth provides cover but only if you actively dodge behind a trunk. Lodge pole pine might have a reduced sighting distance depending on the density of trunks, with partial cover to everyone beyond 30 feet, even if you aren't actively hiding.

But, back to the original point. Starting distance for encounters is highly DM dependent, both because of the type of terrain the DM employs and because of the DM's perspective. Players will adapt.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Wait, what? D&D isn't just a recurring series of combats after combat arena style. Well, not the norm anyway. That's hardly a trap ability if it grants benefits that affect the party in other scenarios (like being able to scout, retrieve items unseen, etc). And even if D&D were nothing but combat, it is not every PCs job to use their HP as a buffer. My wizard looks at you straight up scared. How about this. How about the rogue using his hiding to get a surprise attack the next round, attacking with advantage (and auto crit for assassins) and sneak attack damage? Yeah, he or she's not using their HP as a soak, but they are helping the party in other ways (mainly damage output). Yes, 5e rogues can do this. The gaming session we just did last weekend had the 6th level rogue do over 50 points of damage on a crit sneak attack. Way more than any other PC.

No. Usually the rogue can't do this. He can only do it in the first round of combat and only if the enemy does not notice a threat and only if the rogue beats the targets initiative... which you can assume if the rogue has sufficient time to set his ambush. Or you can assume that the rogue readied an action and this out of order attack triggers combat.

 

[jayoungr]

Even the utility of something as versatile as a Wizard is much less in this edition than previously. That is because 5E adventures do not presume the existence of an arcane caster, and offers much fewer challenges that only spells can deal with.

Surely that only applies if you're running published adventures. An individual DM can design any number of challenges that only spells can deal with.

And even then, there's no telling what the next published adventure might be--it could be "The Tower of Magicky Magic Stuff That Totally Needs a Caster to Complete." (It would probably be harshly criticized for that, but it could happen.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I really don't know why the 5e wizard has no utility because he lacks I win spells. There are rituals which can help a lot in solving problems faster or safer. It is just not the only soltion anymore

 

[Tony Vargas]

Overall I feel as though for a glass cannon to be a viable asset to a party, it either needs to inflict considerably more damage than a tank character, or it needs to offer versatility to help the party out in a variety of situations. Strikers such as the rogue and the ranger feel like they avoid taking their fair share of the aggro from enemies, deal out average damage themselves in return, and don't offer a great deal of party support capabilities to make up for this.

First off, just by using 'striker' you're implying a level of role-support that 5e doesn't offer. Everyone does damage in 5e, potentially a lot of damage, and the fighter is neither defender nor striker, he's 'best at fighting.' The fighter offers DPR and resilience, the Ranger DPR, spells, and woodsy skills, the Rogue DPR, expertise-enhanced skills & thieves tools. If the game is too heavily combat-focused, classes that are hard-wired to make some non-combat contributions aren't going to shine quite as bright, as those dedicated to combat or with the flexibility to choose combat vs non-combat applications of their abilities.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think part of the problem is the assumption of optimal play.

For example, the party's optimal play is to have the heavily armored guys in front and the "strikers" lower priority targets.

What happens if the rogue is ambushed alone?
What happens when the enemy surrounds the party?
What happens when a dragon's breath weapon hits those squishies.

Before getting a few magic items my Storm Sorcerer had an AC of 13. He had great Con though, so I think he was around 50 hp. Barbarian also rolled great con, started at 20 because of insane dice luck, and at the same time had an AC of around 20 and over 100 hp and can take half damage from a lot of attacks.

He stood in front, I did not. This didn't hurt the party I don't think because my guy getting hit was much, much worse for the party. However, my range has done things like stopped scouts from running away that he could not accomplish because he was too far away at the time.