Do NPCs have to follow the rules?

[Alcamtar]

Okay, I have a question. It's a chore to make NPCs (including monsters with class levels) in 3E, due to all the prerequisites, class skills, and so forth. I really long for the old days where you just pick a class and roll hit points.

Anyway, it would be much easier if I just picked the abilities I want and just ignored the character creation rules.

Examples:

- city guard, attack +5, Power Attack, Spot +10, 20 hp, AC 20

- orcish assassin, attack +10, all thief skills +15, sneak attack +5d6, 50 hp

- archwizard, 20th level, attack +15, all knowledge skills at +10, Spellcraft +25, Concentration +25, 100 hp, all metamagic feats, pick spells as needed from the list

CR: either ignore it and assign experience ad-hoc, or choose a CR based on how tough the fight was compared to other fights.

Question for DMs: Do you ever do this? Even if you don't, do you feel this is reasonable?

Question for Players: Would this annoy you if your DM did this?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Ace32]

Why not just use the tables in the DMG?

 

[spacecrime.com]

Originally posted by Alcamtar Question for DMs: Do you ever do this? Even if you don't, do you feel this is reasonable?

Sure, I do it all the time. As long as the NPCs "make sense" to the players (i.e., they don't show obviously contradictory abilities), it's a great time-saver.

Note, however, that some players will be miserable if you think you are skimping on the all-important rules. I think they're silly for thinking this way, IMHO, but it's their game too so you need to respect the attitude. (This doesn't mean you can't take short cuts -- just don't tell them you're doing it and make sure you don't screw up the rules while taking a short cut.)

yours,

 

[Umbran]

There is at least one problem with the method you propose. In summary, taking short cuts yields inferior results.

If you don't take a shot at doing generation, you're probably also not going to write things down, or worry about what you wrote down if you did. That leads to inconsistencies, and a tendency for the DM to fudge. With a fully statted NPC, it is easier to make said NPC an individual - with strengths and weaknesses. If you don't fully stat them out, they will tend to have few weakensses for the PCs to exploit, whereas the DM knows the PC's weaknesses and exploits them. In general, it isn't quite fair.

Also, playing "quick and dirty" with NPC creation means you aren't spending time thinking about the NPC. You don't tend think about his personality as much, nor his tactics. Who wants to interact with half-done characters? If you want them to be interesting, unique, and to have character themselves, a more full effort at generation is called for.

If you want "generic" NPCs, you can go through the generation system once, and repeatedly use those full stats with only minor variations. Essentially, you have generic guards just like you have generic orcs...

 

[Corinth]

Question for DMs: Do you ever do this? Even if you don't, do you feel this is reasonable?[/b]

Not unless I have no other choice, and with most D20 games there is no excuse for doing so. It's far easier than it ever was to make legal NPC stats, so why not do so?

Question for Players: Would this annoy you if your DM did this?[/B]

Hell yes it would. Pushed to extremes, and it becomes a game-breaker. RPGs are still games, and games must be fair to all who participate.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Do NPCs have to follow the rules? Yes--except when they don't.

Personally, I take shortcuts all the time. I don't stat out most of my NPCs, since most of them aren't likely to be involved in combat. I just have a basic idea of what skills they have, and go from there. I don't even always bother rolling, but just decide what result is best for the story.

(Obviously, I do not take that approach when the NPC is doing something opposed to the PCs. That wouldn't be fair.)

I'd suggest you stat out all your major NPCs in detail. For the minor ones, either use the generic stats from the DMG, or just make up the basic attributes as you've done. As long as you have all the info you need, and as long as your players can't tell the difference, who cares?

 

[spacecrime.com]

I think my point about some players being miserable is now made.

cheers,

 

[bwgwl]

Question for DMs: Do you ever do this?

no. i don't find NPC stats a chore, either. after running a campaign for almost a year, i find i can write up a complete stat block for an NPC (even a high-level one) in around 2 minutes. it just takes practice!

Even if you don't, do you feel this is reasonable?

well, maybe. it depends on how far "out-of-line" the NPC's stats are. if it's reasonably similar to something a "legit" character would have, i don't see a problem.

Question for Players: Would this annoy you if your DM did this?

again, it depends. if the NPC deviates enough from the rules that it is noticeable to me as a player, then yes, it will annoy me.

it begs the question why are NPCs allowed to break the rules if PCs can't?

IMC, i'd rather all characters (PCs and NPCs) be on a level playing field and equally "legit."

 

[Alcamtar]

If you don't take a shot at doing generation, you're probably also not going to write things down, or worry about what you wrote down if you did.

I always write stuff down, so that's not really a problem.

That leads to inconsistencies, and a tendency for the DM to fudge.

Is fudging bad?

With a fully statted NPC, it is easier to make said NPC an individual - with strengths and weaknesses. If you don't fully stat them out, they will tend to have few weakensses for the PCs to exploit, whereas the DM knows the PC's weaknesses and exploits them. In general, it isn't quite fair.

I don't normally allow NPCs to use GM knowledge of player abilities.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by weaknesses, since d20 doesn't include the concept of "disadvantages" -- all character stats are abilities, not disabilities. If you mean the abilities are more likely to be fully rounded in all areas creating a superman, I disagree -- with an ad hoc character I'm more likely to miss something.

Also, playing "quick and dirty" with NPC creation means you aren't spending time thinking about the NPC. You don't tend think about his personality as much, nor his tactics. Who wants to interact with half-done characters? If you want them to be interesting, unique, and to have character themselves, a more full effort at generation is called for.

I still think about NPCs, but I think they are more likely to be realistic rather than adding some personality facet just to fill a Feat slot. The difference is that I'm not spending extra time trying to make the mechanics fit my character concept. If I have to go back later and fill in missing abilities, I'd do it by concept rather than by class requirements.

If you want "generic" NPCs, you can go through the generation system once, and repeatedly use those full stats with only minor variations. Essentially, you have generic guards just like you have generic orcs...

Yes, that would work.

Mike

 

[Umbran]

Alcamtar:

Is fudging bad? Not always, but it can be. DMs are rarely perfect people, and they can make errors when doing things on the fly.

If you don't have a full set of stats for an NPC, you will reasonably frequently have to answer the questions, "Can he do this?" or "What can he do now?" on the fly. A great many DMs have a tendency to err on the side of the NPC - the NPC will tend to always have the right spell (that "pick spells as needed" is really unfair, IMHO), always have the right skill, etc. It's entirely natural, usually not a really conscious thing, but it also isn't fair. Conversely, without the stats, you can severely underestimate what an NPC can do if you don't give thorough thought to the stats beforehand. Having the stats made up avoids the pitfalls.

As for "all stats are abilities, not disabilities", sorry, but that isn't true. A strength score of 4 is effectively a disability. Similarly for any stat that gives a negative modifier. Similarly for any skill points spent on "frivolous" skills. Similarly for not having the right spell available. If you prefer to think of these as "relative" disadvantages, that's fine. The fact is that most NPCs should have notable areas where they just aren't that good, just like the PCs do.

Most DMs, when doing ad hoc characters, take note of the high points, but assume that the NPC is average (or probably slightly above average) otherwise.

There's more to creating an NPCs stats than just picking feats for their power. Considering the character generation is a good way to think about who the person is, what choices they've made, what they've faced over time. Selecting spells beforehand means you've got to make choices based upon personality and who they are, as opposed to what is happening in the game at the moment. Similarly for skills and feats. I find this yields more plausible and interesting results than making the facts of the character up mostly in reaction to game-events.