Do NPCs have to follow the rules?

[Reprisal]

As far as I'm concerned one of the rules prime funktions is to balance the power between the players. When it comes to NPCs it doesn't always make sense to follow the rules. Sure if I spend time I could come up with reasons why the old painter with 25 in painting skill have many hp and a high BAB but that would just make things unnecessary complicated. If I need a fighter to have 10 hp and 10 BAB in order to fit into the story then that's what he'll have.

But you're not allowed to balance your encounters as you see fit! Even as the DM, you're expected to follow the rules because the rules are the only thing that stands between despotic autocracy at the table, and a good game!



Most of my major NPCs follow the rules, except for the money they are accorded... I can't justify giving a 3rd Level "Sergeant" that much cash... Likewise, even a 1st level Aristocrat can have some serious coin.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Be careful with general balance, but fudge it. You can always point to RULE ZERO, after all it is an official rule.

 

[Bonedagger]

But you're not allowed to balance your encounters as you see fit! Even as the DM, you're expected to follow the rules because the rules are the only thing that stands between despotic autocracy at the table, and a good game!



Most of my major NPCs follow the rules, except for the money they are accorded... I can't justify giving a 3rd Level "Sergeant" that much cash... Likewise, even a 1st level Aristocrat can have some serious coin.

"Not allowed..." LOL. I balance them so that they are fair to the story.

I'm sorry to hear that it would cause "despotic autocracy at the table" if you chose to twist the rules for the benefit of the story. IMO that trick is something any good DM should be able to pull of.

As a DM you are only expected to make a good game. You don't need to explain how you did it.... And if your players start to question your "fairness" then allowing them to calculate your every action and prejudge if you have been fair would NOT be the best solution. (If they do that they are not worthy of a human GM and should spend their time playing computergames )

 

[Umbran]

Actually, there's something to be said for using the rules for the sake of the players...

You see, the PCs live in the game world. They have a sense of how the world works - they can observe people and make certain reasonable deductions based upon what they see. But, the players cannot make such deductions unless there's some consistency in how the NPCs are constructed. Following the rules lends that consistency, where making them up off the top of your head often doesn't.

 

[Bonedagger]

Actually, there's something to be said for using the rules for the sake of the players...

You see, the PCs live in the game world. They have a sense of how the world works - they can observe people and make certain reasonable deductions based upon what they see. But, the players cannot make such deductions unless there's some consistency in how the NPCs are constructed.

Hmmm... In that case I would tell the players what they see. "The man looks old" or "She seems to have a certain authority about her but she doesn't move with the grace normally associated with one in her position" etc. (Kind of like real life) Of cause sometimes they miss a detail (Low wisdom) or get bluffed.

Following the rules lends that consistency

Yes.

, where making them up off the top of your head often doesn't.

Wrong. Consistency is achieved by letting the players instinct (See above) fit their Wisdom.

 

[Umbran]

Wrong. Consistency is achieved by letting the players instinct (See above) fit their Wisdom.

No, not wrong. You seem to be completely missing the point.

The consistency I'm talking about isn't in what the character observes, but in how they interpret those observations.

The characters may observe that, "She seems to have a certain authority about her but she doesn't move with the grace normally associated with one in her position." But, without some consistency behind how NPCs are constructed, they cannot reliably interpret that to really mean anything. And if they don't know what data means, they cannot effectively plan.

If you're following the rules, running into an NPC with one high skill probably means they will have other high skills, and may well be tough in battle, etc. If you are doing things ad hoc without considering the usual rules, then you can draw no real conclusions from the data. If they run into someone with a high Listen score, maybe the NPC is higher level, and maybe the DM just wanted to give the PCs a hard time sneaking around.

Players should be able to make judgements based upon the data they can percieve. If there aren't some fairly consistent rules, you greatly weaken their ability to do so. Not being able to make reasonably reliable deductions tends to make players reactive, rather than pro-active, as they cannot make plans if they cannot make informed guesses about what they face.

Following rules also enhances your ability to genuinely surprise players. If they detect that you don't follow the rules, they will stop making assumptions and having expectations, and the easiest way to avoid surprise is to expect nothing in particular. If, instead, you show definite patterns, they will generally see value in learning the patterns, and expecting them to be followed. Then, when you throw them the ringer, they will be genuinely off-guard.

The rules you follow don't have to be the DMG's. They just have to follow a logic the players can learn and use - something more than "the DM felt like it". This can give your world a verisimilitude you won't get using ad hoc characters that have skills and abilities just because it's how you think it should be at that moment.

 

[Bonedagger]

No, not wrong. You seem to be completely missing the point.

It's called disagreeing but I do fail to see why you claim there are no consistency.

The consistency I'm talking about isn't in what the character observes, but in how they interpret those observations.

Ahh. But here you don't get the point. That is one and the same thing.

The characters may observe that, "She seems to have a certain authority about her but she doesn't move with the grace normally associated with one in her position." But, without some consistency behind how NPCs are constructed, they cannot reliably interpret that to really mean anything. And if they don't know what data means, they cannot effectively plan.

Are you allowing your players to read your notes? Or are you telling them "You see a women. She has 12 Str, 13 Dex....". They do know what the "data" means. He's stronger looking that PC x means that PC x should probably not armwrestle this guy. This is all they should know.

If you are doing things ad hoc without considering the usual rules, then you can draw no real conclusions from the data. If they run into someone with a high Listen score, maybe the NPC is higher level, and maybe the DM just wanted to give the PCs a hard time sneaking around.

....... I can only disagree with that. It was a though encounter if their job was to sneak past him.

Players should be able to make judgements based upon the data they can percieve. If there aren't some fairly consistent rules, you greatly weaken their ability to do so. Not being able to make reasonably reliable deductions tends to make players reactive, rather than pro-active, as they cannot make plans if they cannot make informed guesses about what they face.

Exept for their visual information plus their research... But since you argument is based on that there is no consistency..

Following rules also enhances your ability to genuinely surprise players. If they detect that you don't follow the rules, they will stop making assumptions and having expectations, and the easiest way to avoid surprise is to expect nothing in particular. If, instead, you show definite patterns, they will generally see value in learning the patterns, and expecting them to be followed. Then, when you throw them the ringer, they will be genuinely off-guard.

Thanks for a lecture on how to make a surprise but I have really never had any problems in that field.

The rules you follow don't have to be the DMG's. They just have to follow a logic the players can learn and use - something more than "the DM felt like it". This can give your world a verisimilitude you won't get using ad hoc characters that have skills and abilities just because it's how you think it should be at that moment.

That "the DM felt like it" is something that comes when a DM is unprepared. I think you are confusing creativity with laziness.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm not denigrating anyone's views, but it seems easy enough to figure this all out.

On one hand, major NPCs like a 20th level wizard (or a 9th level one, for that matter) should have more work put into them. I've been a player and a DM, and to simply assume that an NPC wizard has any spell the DM wants him to have is a good way to get players to squawk. I've been on both sides of the screen for just this situation. I was DMing back years ago, and had an 18th level wizard NPC who was foiling some of the player's plans. Now, I'd planned out all his spells, but had him do some dispelling of magic he couldn't have done under the rules (long story). Anyway, I was immediately called out on it; the players could tell I was being arbitrary. It really kind of ruined the session, and messed things up for me as DM for a long time afterward. Some of the players involved really disliked having the DM pull the "because I said so" or "well, that's just the way it is" routine. So I learned to always stick by the rules, or to have a well-thought-out justification for any rules-bending I might do. That is, create a house rule that I'm consistent with using after that session.

So, I guess my main point here is that it's always good to have exacting stats for high-level NPCs, that define their parameters.

On the other, minor NPCs (city guards, thugs) are generally so easy to create (especially with any of the free generators) or to find elsewhere (Enemies & Allies) that it seems you'd be better off just creating them completely rather than using short-hand stats that may not match a NPC created by the rules.

 

[Black Omega]

I generally try and create NPC's that follow the rules. For mooks I use basic stat blocks, so there is no need to go back and redo them. Feats are already set.

For major NPC's I much prefer working up spells and feats myself. I often use Jamis's NPC generator for stats and hitpoints. For spells for the classes that the generator covers. but I like planning out spells a little more, it gives me a better feel for the tactics the NPC would use.

 

[Reprisal]

Re: Umbran

Hey Umbran,

I understand you're viewpoints and such, but I wasn't attacking the idea of a fair game more than I was counter-attacking the idea that DMs have to be leashed because they weild too much power to be trusted... While it can be true, I believe that the better DMs possess the faculties to balance encounters, adventures, and campaigns to fit the needs of the game (Players + DM + Theme + Campaign + Story = Game).

While I understand the value in following the rules, sometimes, I feel it unnecessary to completely generate an NPC of minor importance... But, I'm lucky in that I enjoy creating NPCs and archetypal minor NPCs... So, I usually have more than enough information in place. What irks me is the belief that the DM must be continuously constrained by the letter of the law... I'd rather use the spirit of the law in addition to the letter to better construct an enjoyable campaign.

I'm not advocating tossing out the players' only shield in the face of a Despotic Autocracy at the Table (DAT), but it's my belief that the threat is grossly overstated.

I guess you could call me a "DM Advocate.*"

(* - What a silly concept! Having Player and DM advocates seems inherently conflictual and therefore unnecessary...)

But really, I believe that if the group shows trust in the DM, that alone should spark some real enthusiasm in the game. Of course, the opposite should be true also...

DMs! Trust your players!
Players! Trust your DM(s)!