Do NPCs have to follow the rules?

[LostSoul]

If NPCs can do something that my PC can't (like have 20 ranks of Spot at first level), I'd be upset.

 

[Snoweel]

... Why not?

I suppose your mileage may vary, but I assume the hard and fast differences between levels, particularly spellcasting levels, are an abstraction, and not as clear cut (8th level Sorcerers can do this and 9th level Sorcerers can do this) as the rules show.

Likewise, and once again, YMMV, but I assume that there's thousands and thousands of spellcasting classes in a D&D gameworld, but only the ones the players may choose from are "balanced" with each other.

If I want an NPC cleric of the fire deity who can spontaneously cast fireballs, I will dammit.

It's up to me to balance him against a standard character class (and I usually use Sorcerer as a template for this kind of thing, switching familiar for some granted power, and changing skills and so on).

YMMV.

 

[hong]

If NPCs can do something that my PC can't (like have 20 ranks of Spot at first level), I'd be upset.

How about creating masterwork armour and shields at 1st level?

How about a +10 bonus to Jump at 1st level?

Your example is extreme. Nobody has suggested that NPCs should routinely be able to overshadow the party just because the DM is lazy. However, it's a long way from that to requiring that every NPC should be fully statted out.

 

[Snoweel]

So, is the question: Should NPC's obey the rules? or: Should all NPC's be fully statted out? There's a big difference along that axis.

The answer to the first question is yes, unless you have a very good reason, while the answer to the second is no, unless you have way too much time on your hands.

I say no to the first question and yes to the second.

 

[Alcamtar]

If I need an impromptu monster, guard, priest, or whatever, I do the following:

This is a very good system. Consider it stolen!

One more thing - I have NEVER quick-statted a 20th level Wizard. That's kind of like quick-statting the Domains of the deities in your campaign - they are a little TOO important for that level of superficiality.

We are playing in Mystara, and the characters are currently in the Principalities of Glantri. For those unfamiliar with the setting, this is a kingdom of high level magic users, many who are epic level (25th-36th) in 3E terms. The land is crawling with 15th and even 20th level wizards.

Also the characters are 9th level and rising, so they'll be meeting these high level characters more and more frequently. They have already met emperors, dukes, and high patriarchs, and these tend to have large retinues.

Most of the powerful NPCs have well developed personalities and histories, including Basic D&D stats and spell lists, and only need a 3E conversion. Characterization or undeveloped NPCs is not an issue, mechanics are. I don't have time to sit down and detail 200 high level wizards that the characters may never even meet, but on the other hand, they might run into one on the street.

Originally posted by Joshua Dyal

I think we're missing some vital information to give you any good advice here.

How do you play your game? Do the players know what the DM rolls on things like Spot checks or the like? What kind of players do you have? Do they focus on the gamesmanship of roleplaying, or on something else?

I generally state the DC and let them roll their own spot checks. My players are powergamers with one rules lawyer. I have so far resisted deviating from the rules at all, because despite their insistence that I can rule-zero and fudge anything I want, I believe that they will be very unhappy if I ever actually use it. They have told me that their characters should have script immunity from permanent death or getting seriously screwed over, and that I should fudge as necessary to make sure they survive. Their primary interest is fighting and tactics and killing stuff and advancing their characters, but they do a fair bit of roleplaying on the side. They are somewhat loony and don't take the game very seriously, being willing to do anything for a laugh. I do have one 100% roleplayer who doesn't seem to care about combat or fudging, but he only shows up half the time.

 

[LostSoul]

How about creating masterwork armour and shields at 1st level?

How about a +10 bonus to Jump at 1st level?

Your example is extreme. Nobody has suggested that NPCs should routinely be able to overshadow the party just because the DM is lazy. However, it's a long way from that to requiring that every NPC should be fully statted out.

Those things are fine, because I know I could decide to do that as well with my character (if the stats allow).

My example is extreme, yep. (Straw man?) The only thing I'd worry about NPCs who don't follow the rules is a DM who allows them to overshadow the party.

 

[Snoweel]

If NPCs can do something that my PC can't (like have 20 ranks of Spot at first level), I'd be upset.

Would you cry?

Dude, NPC's are NPC's.

Ever heard of a savant? Someone who's phenomenal at one thing and pretty much useless at everything else.

Suppose there's the village wierd guy, with a +20 spot modifier and no social skills. Maybe the guy's incapable of speaking? I'd rather a character that can talk than a mute with big, goggly eyes.

What about dragons. From birth they're better than any 1st level character, just from being born different to the PC's.

Likewise a special NPC. He/she might just be born better.

He/she might just be born different.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm not sure how you can separate these two. If the NPC is not fully statted out, how do you know he's legal?

Well, as I said (or meant to say) it's a continuum. On one end is statting everything, on the other end is making everything up. I doubt anyone totally stats out every single creature, although I'm not as certain that some DM's don't just make up everything on the spur of the moment.

I'm not talking about a 1st level guard here, I'm talking about the 10th level bard picked at random from the group of fifty mid-level courtiers in the king's audience chamber.

That's what the DMG tables are for. They give "average" skills for all levels. The PC's will never know unless you tell them. I'd feel free to riff off those tables if the need should arise, exchanging a few skills here and there, maybe changing an item here and there. I'd make an excuse to spend a couple minutes writing the stats and deviations from the tables down, and then once, they're locked and loaded, so to speak, I'd proceed.

That's a big point here: It doesn't MATTER if the NPC's are statted. It only matters that the players feel they are being treated fairly. My players will never see my notes. They'll never know that NPC #1 is a name and a class in my head, and that NPC #2 is fully statted out unless I tell them! They depend on me to know when it is appropriate to use a statted NPC, or not - and they depend on me to not take advantage if I use an NPC that is not fully statted.

The concern in all of this is that the NPC's skills and abilities are fair. As long as the players are OK with the game, your system is OK. That's the bottom line.

 

[Snoweel]

I don't have time to sit down and detail 200 high level wizards that the characters may never even meet, but on the other hand, they might run into one on the street.

Do this:

Sit down and stat out 3 or 4. Give them template names.

Then sit down and stat out 10 spellbook lists. Less if you're so busy.

Then, if you ever need an individual Wizard, pick a template, as well as a spellbook list. Change a couple of spells, maybe add one or two or subtract one or two.

VOILLA! Your PC's will never know the difference.

 

[LostSoul]

Would you cry?

Dude, NPC's are NPC's.

Ever heard of a savant? Someone who's phenomenal at one thing and pretty much useless at everything else.

Suppose there's the village wierd guy, with a +20 spot modifier and no social skills. Maybe the guy's incapable of speaking? I'd rather a character that can talk than a mute with big, goggly eyes.

What about dragons. From birth they're better than any 1st level character, just from being born different to the PC's.

Likewise a special NPC. He/she might just be born better.

He/she might just be born different.

Dude, I'm crying right now.

My question is: why can't my PC be a savant or the village wierd guy? If he can, I don't have a problem (that is, no tears). If he can't, I don't know if I like that so much.

To be clear about things, I'm only speaking about races that are present in the beginning of the PHB (human, elf, etc.). A dragon is a dragon, and if I was able to play one of these I'd expect the other PCs to have a similar amount of power to balance things out.