D&D 5E Do NPCs in your game have PHB classes?

[The Crimson Binome]

But for me, at nearly every point where questions of importance for simulationist play arise (ie what is actually happening in the fiction, given that the rules tell me to roll these dice) D&D doesn't answer them (eg when I roll to hit, what is happening?; when I roll damage dice, or a saving throw, what is happening?; when I make a check to find a secret door, what is happening?; when my PC loses hit points, what is happening?; when my PC moves 30' on my turn and then, in the same 6 seconds, is able to drop a 25' R AoE centred on his/her starting position and not be caught by it, exactly how fast did s/he move?; etc).
[...]
Consider the observations I've just made about D&D - its resolution procedures are often excellent for establishing outcomes in the shared fiction (eg is the PC or the orc the winner of the sword fight? do the PCs find the secret door?) but tend to leave the actual ingame process as an exercise in narration within the mechanically-established parameters. Those rules don't model ingame processes.

D&D is one of the simplest process simulations out there, which is one of the reasons why so many people enjoy it. It is strictly a process simulation, though; it doesn't care about abstract goals, in the way that Apocalypse World (for example) does. Every action in the game actually does correspond to a single process within the game world.

If you undergo the mechanical operations of "The orc attacks with its sword, it hits, and you take damage"; then the in-game reality which corresponds to those mechanics is just "The orc attacks with its sword, it hits, and you take damage". They may not be as detailed as some systems would have, but there is no doubt anywhere that the orc actually hit you with its sword and that it caused damage. (In any edition prior to 4E, I would add that damage meant there was definitely some amount of physical injury involved, but that doesn't really hold up in recent editions.)

If you move 30' feet in six seconds, and then cast a spell 25' feet away, then that's what actually happened - you moved at an average rate of five feet per second, for six seconds, and then finished casting a spell which takes effect more-or-less instantaneously. It may not be as detailed as you could get with GURPS, because it sacrifices a little of its granularity in favor of playability, but it's not abstract by any stretch.

And yet players make decisions all the time having regard to metagame considerations - from agreeing to join or stick with the party because otherwise the game can't work; to choosing option A rather than option B because it will be more fun at the table - and the game doesn't come to a halt. And the players don't feel that there was no point in playing.

Meta-gaming is always an evil, even if it is sometimes the lesser of two evils. When your assassin agrees to not backstab the paladin, because it's a PC, then that is one of those rare cases where meta-gaming might be justified. It's still jarring to the players at the table. The better solution is to simply not play a character who would be put into such a situation.

If the player chooses option A instead of option B, because A would be more fun even though the character would honestly probably do B instead, then that's just poor role-playing. It might be acceptable, particularly if B would involve other players sitting out of the game for an extended period of time, but it's definitely not ideal. Any supposed-RPG which tells you to take the fun option rather than the RP option is bad at being an RPG (whatever its other merits may be).

Part of the issue is that the conceit of an RPG, at least as many play it, is not that the player is an elf; but that the character is an elf and that the player has a special relationship to the character. Broadly speaking, this is a duty to declare actions in the course of play that further the ends or goals of the character.

Yes, part of the issue is that some players don't understand what role-playing is, or don't actually care about role-playing, but insist on playing an RPG anyway. Some game designers don't understand role-playing, or do not actually enjoy role-playing, but insist on labelling their games as RPGs when they aren't actually about role-playing.

This can often require the player to "inhabit" the character. But it doesn't require the player to forget that s/he is playing a game. Spending a fate point or an inspiration point to boost a roll - which at least in some systems doesn't correspond to anything distinctive happening in the game but is a pure mechanical manipulation - doesn't stop the player inhabiting the character. (After all, players of D&D spell casters often don't have to roll dice at all to find out whether or not they are able to cast spells - they just declare it - and so how can spending a chit to improve a die roll be a problem yet having the ability to declare the fiction thus-and-so by fiat not be?)

Role-playing is making decisions as your character would. If you make decisions beyond the scope of character agency, then you're not role-playing; you might be game-playing, or story-telling, or otherwise exerting agency within the game world (depending on the specific circumstances). If you are furthering the goals of the character by exerting this agency, then you compromise the integrity of the world, and you're back to deus ex machina territory.

The difference between rolling dice for damage, and choosing to spend an inspiration point (where it doesn't correspond to anything in-game), is that the latter is actually a decision which the player makes. Role-playing is only about the decisions which the character makes - which the player makes while pretending to be the character. Rolling dice isn't a decision; it's just administrative overhead, like talking, or writing something down on your character sheet.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I have to call BS on that. People use a plethora of out-of-game information all the time. Current HP totals, knowledge of how AoO rules work, +X values of magic items, the odds of hitting target numbers with attacks or saves, etc.

All of that information is available to the character. Hit Points correspond to current bodily integrity, which can be ascertained by looking at someone. The AoO rules reflect the in-game reality of turning to flee, thereby leaving yourself open. The +X on a weapon corresponds to specific enchantments which have been placed on it, which can be determined by the magical item identification procedures. The odds to hit or save reflect the real in-game probabilities of landing a blow or resisting a spell.

Do you really think that an accomplished warrior can't estimate their own chance of landing a blow on an opponent, upon observing how well the enemy can defend itself?

 

[GreyLord]

It looks like I'm in the minority. I don't give every NPC class levels, but I give some of them class levels. It's not rare per se, pretty common in fact, but mostly for player races that are NPCs, rather than monsters that are NPCs.

 

[MechaPilot]

All of that information is available to the character. Hit Points correspond to current bodily integrity, which can be ascertained by looking at someone.

No. Hp corresponds to a confluence of of qualities. How does a character accurately assess how much luck or divine grace someone has left by looking at them?

The AoO rules reflect the in-game reality of turning to flee, thereby leaving yourself open.

Sure, in 5e. But 5e is not the only edition of D&D to have AoO rules: 3e and 4e did as well, along with charts of what actions cause AoOs. And, in 5e every player knows they can use a potion in combat without their enemy being able to stop it, despite many foes being very fast and agile. Can you chug that potion before the halfling thief stabs you? You automatically know that your potion chugging reflexes are better than his "hey, knock that off" reflexes because of out-of-game information that says it provokes no AoO.

The +X on a weapon corresponds to specific enchantments which have been placed on it, which can be determined by the magical item identification procedures.

Magic item identification procedures which allow people with no training in magic of any type to identify magic weapons and their properties. It's a convenient mechanic that facilitates game play, but it completely goes against your notion of in-game info only if a character who is totally magic-illiterate can know all the qualities of an item just by messing with it for an hour.

The odds to hit or save reflect the real in-game probabilities of landing a blow or resisting a spell. Do you really think that an accomplished warrior can't estimate their own chance of landing a blow on an opponent, upon observing how well the enemy can defend itself?

Do you think an accomplished warrior estimates their own chance of landing a blow on an opponent in terms of having to roll X or higher on a d20? Or that they can come up with actual percentages for hitting and missing?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

No. Hp corresponds to a confluence of of qualities. How does a character accurately assess how much luck or divine grace someone has left by looking at them?

Whether HP are 10% grace or 90%, your current HP will correspond to how beaten-up you look. You could get around that by saying that your top 50% of HP are purely grace, and your last few HP are comprised of pure meat, but any issues associated with such would be entirely your own fault. I'm not going to make excuses for you choosing to implement a poor model.

Sure, in 5e. But 5e is not the only edition of D&D to have AoO rules: 3e and 4e did as well, along with charts of what actions cause AoOs. And, in 5e every player knows they can use a potion in combat without their enemy being able to stop it, despite many foes being very fast and agile. Can you chug that potion before the halfling thief stabs you? You automatically know that your potion chugging reflexes are better than his "hey, knock that off" reflexes because of out-of-game information that says it provokes no AoO.

You automatically know that you can drink a potion without leaving yourself open to reprisal, because you are a thinking person who has experience with being at sword-point and are aware of what sort of effort is required to retrieve and quaff a potion. Or if you can't, because that's the edition you're playing, then you know that you can't because you have lived for many years in that world and you are aware of how much effort and focus is required to perform certain tasks.

Magic item identification procedures which allow people with no training in magic of any type to identify magic weapons and their properties. It's a convenient mechanic that facilitates game play, but it completely goes against your notion of in-game info only if a character who is totally magic-illiterate can know all the qualities of an item just by messing with it for an hour.

If you think it's "unrealistic" for a fighter to identify a Wand of Fireballs just by playing around with it for an hour, then that's well within your rights, and I would probably agree with you on that point. One of the assumptions of 5E is that magic is common enough for that to not be out-of-place for the kinds of professional adventurers that the PCs are assumed to be. They also note that this is a bigger assumption than is made in other editions, and so they suggest that maybe you change this procedure to actually require the Identify spell if that makes more sense for your world.

Do you think an accomplished warrior estimates their own chance of landing a blow on an opponent in terms of having to roll X or higher on a d20? Or that they can come up with actual percentages for hitting and missing?

Not in terms of a d20 roll, no, but neither do they think in terms of HP numbers either - they are considering the underlying reality, whenever we consider the mechanical representation of that reality. Maybe they don't think of it in terms of percentages, based on their own mathematical background (which is likely to be minimal), but in practical terms they would at-minimum be able to declare a relative degree of certainty. (I.e. "I'm sure I can hit," or "I'm pretty sure I can hit," all the way down to "I don't think I can land a hit.")

The characters know a lot more about their world than we do. They can see the actual reality on the ground, where we can only see the mechanics which are a pale reflection of that reality, from which we can try to imagine it.

 

[Maxperson]

If this character has more than 120 HP, and your DM says that it is "certain" that this fall is instantly fatal, then I don't know what to tell you. Your DM is so far removed from the game in the book as to make discussion pointless, and I can't imagine an entire table full of players putting up with that sort of thing.

5e RAW absolutely allows that. No dice come into play unless the outcome is uncertain, and only the DM determines uncertainty, not the other rules.

The rules actually do tell you when an outcome is certain. If a character has less than 10 HP, then a fall from 200 feet is certain death, and you don't even need to roll; if it has more than 10 HP, then death is not certain, and you do need to roll.

No. You really don't. It's silly for the DM to do that in those circumstances, but it is well within the DM's rights by RAW to decide that a 200 foot fall is certain death for a PC with more than 10 hit points.

The game is supposed to be about the PCs, and the decisions which the players make on their behalf, but none of their decisions mean anything if the DM goes around house-ruling without telling them about the changes. If your DM wants to house-rule that a fall from 100+ feet is certainly fatal, and this is made known to the players beforehand so they can buy into it, then that's one thing. Otherwise, you're telling them that death is certain when they have every reason in the world to believe that survival is certain.

It's not a house rule. It's a rule. Like anything else, though, if the DM abuses it he will lose his players.

 

[Maxperson]

All of that information is available to the character. Hit Points correspond to current bodily integrity, which can be ascertained by looking at someone.

RAW contradicts that statement.

When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury.

 

[Shasarak]

No. Hp corresponds to a confluence of of qualities. How does a character accurately assess how much luck or divine grace someone has left by looking at them?

I would assume that by the time they are down to 1 hp left then they are not looking very "lucky" anymore.

 

[Hussar]

/snip
This is rationalization. It is a logical fallacy aimed toward disguising your true intentions (to other players, or to yourself). If your real reason for including an encounter is that it would be interesting for the players, then it doesn't matter how cleverly you go back and make it fit, because it already didn't originate from your honest presentation of the world.

Sorry, but, it's all 100% rationalization. At no point in creating a campaign is it not a rationalization.

And the conceit of an RPG is that you are really a bunch of elves who actually live within that world, and that there isn't such an outside force. You play the game by pretending to be your characters, rather than by acting as omnipotent outsiders. If you actually use any of your omnipotent powers, then you've violated the conceit, and there's no point in even playing.

So, any RPG that includes anything like Action Points, Fate Points, Inspiration, etc. isn't a role playing game and there's no point in playing?

 

[Hussar]

Per the rules it had to do with the connection of the magic to the home plane and the distance in number of planes in-between the home plane and where you ended up. That was very much a natural law and the game provided it.

No, it was a rationalization done after the fact because AD&D had some serious issues trying to challenge name level characters. Funny how when you look at the spells that got taken off the table, they are all the high powered stuff by and large. Oh, and, somehow my God can't reach me if I step into another plane and I can't get my high level healing spells back. Funny that.

Yet, anything traveling to the Prime Material plane had none of its abilities affected whatsoever.

Awfully convenient.