D&D 5E Do NPCs in your game have PHB classes?

[Hussar]

In case you've forgotten, it's entirely possible to miss with an attack against an unconscious character. Moreso in 4E than 2E or 3E, but it's still a waste of a turn that could otherwise be used to try and KO the healer. (It's also possible, in 2E or 3E, for an attack to not take someone from -2 to -10 in one go.)

No, my argument has always been that the rules of the game reflect the nature of the game world, which means they can be equally understood by anyone who lives in that world. If you're playing in a world which is represented as 2E with the Death's Door option, then anyone who has seen healing magic in action will know equally well that there's no point in finishing off a downed opponent, since it's a non-combatant either way (the only point in healing a downed ally was to prevent bleeding out; they couldn't contribute to the fight until they'd had serious rest and recovery).

If you're playing in a world which is represented as 5E with the default settings, then both sides are likely to know that you should finish off a downed opponent immediately if the other side still has a healer active. If the PCs make use of that option, but you play the NPCs as ignoring that option, then you aren't playing the NPCs to their intelligence; you're role-playing poorly, and that isn't fair to the players.

So, which do you do Sealorn? Do you gank fallen PC's? 2e had no recovery time after you went negative AFAIR, so, from 2e onward, so long as the healing brought you back above 1 HP, you were good to go. So, do you play that way? After all, you admit that not doing so is role playing poorly, so, I'd expect you to gank downed PC's every chance you got.

And, ok, let's run with the idea that the rules of the game reflect the nature of the game world. Are your settings entirely over run with undead? From at least 2e onward, anyone killed by a wraith becomes a wraith. By 3e, that's in a d4 rounds btw. If you start with a single wraith, and assume that every wraith kills 2 people per day, that's a billion wraiths in a single month. Why aren't all your game worlds completely destroyed by undead? Aren't you a good role player? Why aren't you role playing your undead NPC's?

On and on and on. D&D is not, nor has it ever been, a world building engine. Trying to use it as such means you have to ignore vast swaths of what the game actually says, and, at that point, well, you might as well not bother.

 

[Maxperson]

For all that we each think the other's probably crazy, I think Saelorn & I get along OK. I've never felt the need to block him, anyway, and I can still see his posts.

Yeah. I don't have anyone blocked. My personal philosophy is that everyone has something valid to say at least some of the time and I don't want to miss it. With the changes to this site, I can never block anyone, though. I don't believe in controlling others and would never dream of forcing someone else to block me against their will. That this site does that is a travesty.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, which do you do Saelorn? Do you gank fallen PC's? 2e had no recovery time after you went negative AFAIR, so, from 2e onward, so long as the healing brought you back above 1 HP, you were good to go. So, do you play that way? After all, you admit that not doing so is role playing poorly, so, I'd expect you to gank downed PC's every chance you got.

I'm pretty sure that 2E had the significant recovery time after magical healing for an unconscious ally during Death's Door. I'm 90% certain of it.

In any case, it's not a situation I ever faced. In the 2-3 years during which I played 2E, before we switched to 3E, I don't recall there ever being a situation where we fought an enemy which had access to healing magic. Spellcasters were rare, and spellcasting priests were so rare as to be practically nonexistent. (We got by with natural healing.) And given the recovery thing, as mentioned above, I doubt we would have bothered since they wouldn't be re-joining the fight.

Even in 3E, though, it was rarely a good idea to kick someone while they were down. Seven times out of ten, you could prevent the cleric from getting within touch range of a fallen ally by creating a meat wall and threatening opportunity attacks. The other three times, it was considered a fair trade-off to let their cleric spend its entire action in order to Cure their fighter, given that cleric actions were often more valuable than fighter actions, and it was simple enough to (for example) drop the fighter again with the same spell that would otherwise be spent against the cleric (e.g. Burning Hands). The same logic applies to both sides of the combat.

And, ok, let's run with the idea that the rules of the game reflect the nature of the game world. Are your settings entirely over run with undead? From at least 2e onward, anyone killed by a wraith becomes a wraith. By 3e, that's in a d4 rounds btw. If you start with a single wraith, and assume that every wraith kills 2 people per day, that's a billion wraiths in a single month. Why aren't all your game worlds completely destroyed by undead? Aren't you a good role player? Why aren't you role playing your undead NPC's?

I don't have the 2E text at hand, but according to the 3.5 text, wraiths are utterly powerless in natural sunlight. That rather limits their ability to spread, unless settlements are sufficiently close together and the wraith has a map.

And in any case, whenever there's a small setting detail which could otherwise destabilize the entire setting, it is disingenuous to take it at face value. Remember, the rules of the game only reflect the laws of the setting under certain assumptions. Given the fact that wraiths did not actually take over either Greyhawk or Toril, and both of those settings conformed rather closely to the rules of the game, there must be some other information which we do not have, which can explain why they did not do so.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm pretty sure that 2E had the significant recovery time after magical healing for an unconscious ally during Death's Door. I'm 90% certain of it.

I remember that 1wk recovery period vividly, from 1e, having been on the wrong side of it more than once. Can't say the same for 2e. Guess we have a date with some old books.

In any case, it's not a situation I ever faced. In the 2-3 years during which I played 2E, before we switched to 3E, I don't recall there ever being a situation where we fought an enemy which had access to healing magic.

I think he was asking about games that you ran, specifically, in accord with the philosophy you're espousing atm.

And in any case, whenever there's a small setting detail which could otherwise destabilize the entire setting, it is disingenuous to take it at face value.

You could say the same of system details, and cut them some slack, as well.

 

[pemerton]

Unlike hit points, armor class, level and so on, spell slots are something that really is measurable and knowable by the PC.

You could play it that way, sure. I don't think you have to, though.

 

[Shasarak]

Upthread, [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] asserted that the GM metagaming, GM scene-framing, the GM deliberately establishing elements of the fiction so as to deliberately push the players (via their PCs expressed concerns and backstory), are all bad.

I denied that, and gave some examples. I don't think it's put any pressure on my denial to point out that it is bad GMing to negate player choices or to run a boring or repetitive game.

I believe that the proliferation of only-child orphan PCs gives a good indication what the general feeling that Players have towards great DM plots that revolve around kidnapping family members.

Of course your mileage may vary and all that jazz.

 

[Shasarak]

Missing the point.

You can take damage from an attack that includes poison, then make your poison save. So, were you wounded or not? You took damage, but, weren't poisoned - so, it logically follows that you actually weren't hit, since the merest scratch should result in your death. So, right there, not all hits actually cause physical damage.

Exactly thank you, a hit that does 0 hp damage does no physical damage. That is the whole point.

 

[Shasarak]

No. He was talking about hit point loss causing poison death. There can be no poison save without there first being hit point damage, at least not the kind of poison that he was talking about.

There are animals that do no hp damage + poison on a hit.

 

[pemerton]

I believe that the proliferation of only-child orphan PCs

What proliferation? In whose games?