D&D 5E Do PCs at your table have script immunity?

[Filthy Lucre]

So, it seems D&D 5e is the first game I know of where you have to negotiate with the players beforehand if they are allowed to lose. Maybe it's time to take the "G" out of RPG and everybody will be happy.

I wouldn't let forum dwellers get you down. D&D is so popular now that I can't imagine it not being viable to literally interview players to determine if they're going to suit the game you want to run.

This really seems to be a non-issue you guys are going back and forth over.

 

[overgeeked]

First, how does any of that stop you from playing how you like, with like-minded players?

Second, we don't know what the players mean by not wanting character death until we ask them. I've met many who legitimately don't want to lose, and death is seen as the most obvious expression of that idea. Just because someone wants death off the table doesn't mean they're ok with other forms of failure. Sometimes players just want the DM to run them through a power fantasy.

In my experience that’s exactly what it is. No chance of ever losing and pure “I’m so awesome” power fantasy. I’ve literally had players rage quit because their character took damage. Not beat on. Not dog piled. Not near death. Not down. Not dying. Not dead. Just got hit and took damage. During a combat. Took his ball and went home. I didn’t laugh in his face. But the rest of the group still jokes about it...what, five, six years later.

 

[jayoungr]

I voted for #1, but I also make a distinction between being dead and being permadead. The character can die, but if the player doesn't want to retire the character, I'll work with the player to find a way to bring the character back.

An example from actual play: The party's cleric was disintegrated by a zombie beholder at level 5 in Ravenloft. I gave the player three choices:

1. The character is brought back by the Dark Powers, and you roll on the Dark Gifts table.

2. If the party scoops up the dust, a friendly druid NPC they met a while back can cast reincarnate.

3. I arrange for the party to later meet someone who could resurrect the cleric, but might want some payment. In the meantime, you can either play the cleric as a ghost (with heavy restrictions on what she can do) or bring in a temporary new character.

(The player opted for the Dark Gift.)

 

[overgeeked]

As a point of clarification the saying is generally not be a fan of your players (although you generally should like the people you play with). It is generally be a fan of the players' characters. Mainly that as a GM you should be emotionally engaged in play with the player characters and should care about them the same way you would characters on your favorite TV show. You should like them, care about their struggles. and be curious about them. Curious about who they really are. Curious about how they will respond to events. You should be on the edge of your seat to see what happens when the spotlight is on them.

It's really about valuing the creative contributions of the people you play with. Wanting to see more from them.

And a requirement of that is the DM actually liking the PCs. If I want to run a good-aligned game and my players want an evil game...that’s not going to work. For me as DM to be a fan of the PCs, the players have to make characters I’ll actually like, or at least not actively hate from the jump. All these stock phrases seem rather explicitly pointed at the DM and what they should do but skip over the players’ side of things. DMs should be a fan of the PCs; players should make characters the DM can be a fan of. It’s not “players make anything you want and the DM has to be a fan no matter what”.

 

[BookTenTiger]

And a requirement of that is the DM actually liking the PCs. If I want to run a good-aligned game and my players want an evil game...that’s not going to work. For me as DM to be a fan of the PCs, the players have to make characters I’ll actually like, or at least not actively hate from the jump. All these stock phrases seem rather explicitly pointed at the DM and what they should do but skip over the players’ side of things. DMs should be a fan of the PCs; players should make characters the DM can be a fan of. It’s not “players make anything you want and the DM has to be a fan no matter what”.

It's almost like everyone at the table should work together to have a good time.

 

[Arilyn]

In my experience that’s exactly what it is. No chance of ever losing and pure “I’m so awesome” power fantasy. I’ve literally had players rage quit because their character took damage. Not beat on. Not dog piled. Not near death. Not down. Not dying. Not dead. Just got hit and took damage. During a combat. Took his ball and went home. I didn’t laugh in his face. But the rest of the group still jokes about it...what, five, six years later.

This is a different issue though. The vast majority of gamers who want death off the table are not rage quitters. Even power fantasy gamers want actual obstacles to overcome, or there's not much to the fantasy. Players who take their ball home, or pout and cheat on dice rolls have other issues not related to a particular favoured style of play.

 

[overgeeked]

It's almost like everyone at the table should work together to have a good time.

No one’s said any different. Different people at the table have different roles, desires, and preferences. If one person isn’t interested in a style or genre, they don’t have to play. Everyone has to agree to play for there to be a game. If a given person has wiggle room in their preferences, that’s up to them as a person, not the group...and it’s certainly not up for a vote. No one gets to vote on what someone else does with their free time.

Trouble is...there’s at least 10-20 players per DM. The DM puts in 99% of the work. The role the DM fills is not the same as the role the player fills. Saying otherwise is disingenuous at best. If the DM only put in as much work as a player, the players would think they’re the worst DM ever.

 

[Willie the Duck]

This is a different issue though. The vast majority of gamers who want death off the table are not rage quitters. Even power fantasy gamers want actual obstacles to overcome, or there's not much to the fantasy. Players who take their ball home, or pout and cheat on dice rolls have other issues not related to a particular favoured style of play.

Agreed. TTRPGs have always included actual children, along with those who act like them or worse. That doesn't really speak to anything except that the game is open to all comers. Certainly doesn't show a representative side of the totality of people with specific lethality preferences.

 

[Umbran]

Trouble is...there’s at least 10-20 players per DM. The DM puts in 99% of the work. The role the DM fills is not the same as the role the player fills. Saying otherwise is disingenuous at best. If the DM only put in as much work as a player, the players would think they’re the worst DM ever.

Not all games and playstyles have the same role and effort for the GM. It may be that you, with your preferred style of play, do 99% of the work. Don't assume that's universal.

What you say here only holds for prep-heavy games. I have seen plenty of GMs who are very good at running without significant preparation, who honestly don't do 99% of the work, and who have quite satisfied players. Admittedly, there are some experiences they don't provide as well - there's always trade-offs.

But, if the situation is that you, as GM, want a particular kind of game, and that means you, as GM, have to do tons of prep... I am not sure why that translates to any responsibility on the player's end. I mean... you're inflicting the style and prep on yourself, at that point. Saying, "I'm doing all the work, so I should get my way," loses power when you are also insisting that you do all the work in the first place.

 

[Campbell]

I guess the people I play with most be GM hoarders.

In my D&D group 3 of out of 6 are GMs. Used to be 4 of 7.
In my Exalted group 4 out of 5 are GMs.
In my Infinity group it is 2 out of 4.
In my Vampire group it is 3 out of 4.

When I ran Lancer, Apocalypse Keys and Scion it was 3 out of 5.

2 of us crossover in last 3 games. We try to encourage everyone to try their hand behind the screen. Those of us who aren't GMs certainly could be and I am certain eventually will be. Our players definitely do a good deal of work, especially in the setup phases.