Do prestige classes curb creativity?

[MerricB]

A post to read:
http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/musings/2005_01_01_musings_archive.htm

Prestige classes are a way of providing a group of linked abilities, within a framework that balances them with the rest of the game.

If you find them limiting your creativity, then the rest of the game must be limiting your creativity, because without prestige classes you either have fewer options, or exactly the same if you believe that any prestige class can be created with feats.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

In a dungeon I designed I had a room in which I had described the floor as thickly covered with straw. In the room was a flagstone which covered a trapdoor in the floor of the room. Now, I had allowed the trapdoor to be discovered with a DC 30 search check, but I wrote in my notes that if the players moved aside the straw in order to uncover the floor they would recieve a +5 circumstance bonus. Not one of the players conducting a search of the room thought to interact with the straw in anyway even though I'd specifically placed a broom in the room as a clue, even though they were convinced something was hidden in the room.

I think that pretty much points to you as having a problem with adapting your DMing style to your players, not a problem with the players.

Even in the days of AD&D, there was a divide between the players who would roll 1d6 to find a secret door, and those who would describe what they were doing to look for it.

Players use the method they know their DM favours. Each DM has different strengths.

If you had been running your players under one system and then suddenly used another, then their incomprehension of the change can be fully put at your feet.

 

[Li Shenron]

So, do other people see prestige classes as making too many player choices for you?

Do prestige classes curb creativity?

Yes they do.

Originally IIRC the 3ed design team had the idea of the six DMG prestige classes as a starting point for the DM to design his own.

Now with 100s of PrCls around a DM is strongly encouraged not to design his own PrCls (because they "might be unbalanced") and instead to buy more books and use the ready ones.

They can still help a DM's creativity in the sense that the DM can choose a few PrCls and fit them into his world, or use them as an inspiration to make up typically an organization which has a role in the setting.

While in theory they should add more colours to a player's palette, the sheer number of PrCls isn't a good thing for creativity IMHO.

A creative player thinks of a character concept such as "mage who uses a lot of fire" or "big brute warrior who goes berserk", then is able to create such a character with just the core rules (or little more), and to add the flavor with roleplay and description. There is not much creativity in browsing a thousands pages until you find something ready for you.

To make an example about how this can happen in someone's game. We had a player last year who wanted to make some demon hunter, and the kind of player that buys almost every book... He was mad because he couldn't find "a decent demon hunter" in all his books (he didn't want to use e.g. the Knight of the Chalice because he didn't like some features or maybe didn't have some prerequisites - I don't remember), until the DM pointed out that he could just use the Hunter of the Dead, slightly modified, but the player was suspicious of this option and at the end he looked for a different concept.

IMHO the prestige classes can help creativity, but it's the sheer number of them around which doesn't help.

Just for laughs... how many of us have played with LEGO when we were kids? It used to a game with incredible creativity potential. But in years, they added more and more "pre-made" bricks (those that looked already like a finished shape): in early days you took a stick-brick and turn it into a sword, or two long+thin+flat bricks and turn them into skies, but now kids have the ready shapes for both. When you have everything ready, creativity isn't exactly helped... [And BTW, LEGO was announced to be in some sort of unprecedented crisis this year ]

 

[Snowy]

Prestige classes only limit your imagination if your imagination would be limited anyway.

I'm sure everything was better in the good old days though, it always is, I remember amusing myself for hours sailing around the bay pretending to be a pirate, don't do that anymore (well maybe once or twice really really quietly to myself).

Some prestige classes have the wrong pre-requisites, they are badly written examples rather than a problem with the concept as a whole though, but then that should be under the great and mighty power of the DM to adjust them if he sees fit, with so many to choose from he could even suggest another that you qualify for that would work the same or even better! He could even use all those other examples as comparisons to keep the power level as he wants it.

Though the point about feats is true, more feats are good, mmmm more more more.... I likes feats don't I precious.

 

[Psion]

Been out of it for a few days, so excuse me if I am lagging.

Change the name "fighter" to samurai, knight, cavalier, legionaire, etc. and you can have a new feel with the same mechanics. Call your character an "elementalist", say he gets his powers from a connection with the elemental planes, choose spells based on the elements, and don't tell your fellow Players that the actual class is sorcerer.

This is especially true with mutliclassing. Think "pirate" instead of "rogue/fighter". Or "skald" instead of "bard/barbarian".

I think there are two sides to this coin.

One side is "Don't be afraid to multiclass if it will get you what you want." I imagine that there are many more multiclassed characters in the world than the rules like to pretend.

The other side is "if you want to emphsize a role in your game, make a class for it." Period. (Class can be core or prestige, depending on how fundamental you want the class to be in your game.) Sure, you can sometimes make things with other classes, but some players don't think like that, and sometimes getting just what you want is cumbersome if possible. Even if you can make differenct concepts with the building blocks, making a prestige class that is the culmination of the building blocks can give the PCs an advancement path or give them ideas how to advance their character.

Sure, if you hardly ever run games in a faux East Asian setting, describing samurai as "figher/aristocrats" will probably suffice. But if you want to run a campaign with players playing these characters, I really think it behooves you to create a samurai class that is an attractive alterntative to the fighter and fits the bill for your game... few players are going to voluntarily take on the punishment of multiclassing with an NPC class.

Similar to this, Celebrim really thinks that making feats is the "answer" to prestige classes. Eh, not really. There are books and books with feats, but feats have a very scattered feel about them. It has been my experience tha players don't embrace new feats as readily as new classes. If they depart from the core feats at all, it is very peicemeal. Players are generally NOT, in my experience, going to want to play a kitbash shadowdancer.

Prestige classes have enduring popularity despite criticisms from a vocal minority precisely because they assemble all the peices that are needed to make up a (hopefully interesting) concept instead of making you do the footwork to assemble it yourself.

 

[DonTadow]

I know we're not the first person to think of this. Is there a product out there that only has say 4 base classes. Healer, Wizard, Fighter, Rogue. And then from there as you reach certain levels you can get prcs that branch off into specific areas. Even puts Barbarian, Monk, Paladin and Sorceror as those higher level classes since they're just derivitives of the base four. If you want to take a prestige class you have to have class levels in its base class first. That would satisify me as I would no longer question wierd multiclassing "all of a sudden".

 

[Celebrim]

Prestige classes have enduring popularity despite criticisms from a vocal minority precisely because they assemble all the peices that are needed to make up a (hopefully interesting) concept instead of making you do the footwork to assemble it yourself.

I'm more than willing to admit that there are reasons that they remain popular. There are even a handful I think you can make a good case that they are neither overpowered nor completely doable with just multiclassing and feats, and I think that as a concept they can be useful DM tools on occassion. As I said before, they are excellect tools for making standardized organizations of mooks.

All that may be true, but essentially you've just said that they have enduring popularity because they discourage creativity. I agree. One of the attractions of a PrC is it gives you something to play which is 'cool' without having to do much work. Someone else said that all classes reduce creativity. I agree. However at some level thier is a useful tradeoff between what the class mechanic can provide and creativity. I just happen to think that PrC's cross over that line and collectively do far more harm than good.

We don't really need PrC's to have ready made character concepts.

 

[Psion]

All that may be true, but essentially you've just said that they have enduring popularity because they discourage creativity.

At the very least, you have spun my words in the worst light possible. You'll also see in my initial response where I point out how PrCs give you seeds of ideas that you can expound upon. Unless you are so arrogant to assume that you are going to come up with every good idea without inspiration yourself, that's not really "limiting creativity".

So just let me say what I am "essentially saying", 'kay?

One of the attractions of a PrC is it gives you something to play which is 'cool' without having to do much work.
(...)
We don't really need PrC's to have ready made character concepts.

So, juxtaposing the above statements, it seems your assertion is that nobody wants (needs) cool ideas without much work? If so, I think your assessment of what "we" "need" is rather off.

 

[Celebrim]

At the very least, you have spun my words in the worst light possible.

Well, duh. Isn't that what internet discussions are all about?

Are you really claiming that you won't try and haven't tried to spin my words in the worst light possible?

So, juxtaposing the above statements, it seems your assertion is that nobody wants (needs) cool ideas without much work? If so, I think your assessment of what "we" "need" is rather off.

I don't think I asserted that at all. I think I asserted that people like having ready made ideas for characters. I simply stated that if that was all that was at stake, it would not be necessary to have PrC's. We could lay out say a progression for a 10th level ranger/10th level rogue and call it 'Scout', 'Hunter', 'Bandit' (or whatever). Of course, that's not quite as prestigious as a 'Prestige Class'. It doesn't give you something to look forward to because you've been a 'Scout', 'Hunter', 'Bandit' or whatever since the beginning. Plus, you're 'just' a ranger/rogue and are no better than a ranger/rogue and people don't want to be 'merely' something. All these other emotional needs also encourage people to take PrC's, and not just the need to put together a character without 'footwork'. PrC's are popular because they satisfy several emotional needs. I'm sure that there are alot of players out there that think that Prestige Classes are the coolest sort of crunch that you can provide, otherwise it wouldn't sell so well. I likewise think that the people who think PrC's are really cool probably spend more time thinking about the crunch of thier character than anyone, so I actually doubt that the ammount of 'footwork' saved by a PrC is a major attraction. To be completely frank, if you want to sell alot of PrC's you probably could do well creating a product want to forgo issues like balance and creativity completely and just give the consumers of PrC's what they want - PrC's that let them be Wolverine or 'Movie Legolas' or Jedi Knights or (showing my age) Storm Shadow or whatever it is that people think is cool. Certainly it worked for Rifts. To a certain extent, there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's a game and games are primarily about enjoying yourself, and some people enjoy themselves not just by succeeding but by succeeding with ease. Whether they are confusing ease with panache or whether succeeding easily is panache is an entirely different discussion.

But I'm just snobbish enough to think that giving people what they think they want isn't always whats best for them. I don't think that Weapon Specialization as it existed in 1st edition was actually good for the game, even though it was highly popular and everyone (including me) used it extensively. It's only afterwards looking back that I have the perspective to see that one of the nagging reasons I didn't enjoy the game as much as I could have was Weapon Specialization. I would have never thought of it at the time, because weapon specialization was 'cool'. Likewise, I don't think the PrC's as they exist in 3rd edition are actually good for the game. I think for the most part, they give people a bellyache and alot of players become disenchanted with concept after abit of exposure to it.

But I never for once imagined that they weren't popular.

 

[Psion]

I don't think I asserted that at all. I think I asserted that people like having ready made ideas for characters.

Right. But my point is: how do you get from the first sentence I quoted (which asserts this) to the second (that we don't "need" that mechanic.)

All these other emotional needs also encourage people to take PrC's, and not just the need to put together a character without 'footwork'. PrC's are popular because they satisfy several emotional needs.

Which include ease of use and coherence of concept. Which are boons for character design as well as giving the DM a tool to create coherence between the PCs and the surrounding campaign.

To be completely frank, if you want to sell alot of PrC's you probably could do well creating a product want to forgo issues like balance and creativity completely and just give the consumers of PrC's what they want

The track record of products like "Mystic Knights" that provided generous boons with the flimsiest of justification give the lie to this.

But I never for once imagined that they weren't popular.

No, you just imagine that all instances of the mechanic necessarily follow its worst instances, or so it would appear. A PrC (any class, really) can be interesting, or fulfill important roles in a campaign, without being overpowering.

Edit: Further, if your sole cry is "PrCs that appeal to people can be unbalanced", the same thing can be said of feats, which you seem to favor, and core classes. There is nothing here unique to PrCs.