Do prestige classes curb creativity?

[CRGreathouse]

I guess the only PrCs I really hate are the mundane "Guild Thief" type PrCs or the "here's a way to fix a broken bit in the rules" PrC like Mystic Theurge - my least favourite PrC _ever_.

The mystic theurge is a bad way to fix a messed-up portion of the rules, but the Complete Adventurer multiclassing prestige classes and feats were much worse in my opinion.

Personally, for most purposes, I prefer a small number of classes (11+5 base classes, plus some prestige classes) and a lot of feats to provide choices.

 

[Celebrim]

I'd after differ from this assumption of the argument so far.

Ok, fine. It would be nice if you actually addressed some of the points I made when differing, but you are free to differ without doing so.

The basic argument for prestiges from what I gather is that they both provide role playing experiences AS WELL AS fill niches that are missing from the base classes.

Yeah, that's what I said.

I don't know of too many prestiges that can be done by combining the base class with feats or skills.

I don't either, but that's not exactly what I said. I said that every prestige classes class abilities could be made into a feat. In fact, the simple way to do this would be simply look at what the prestige classes prerequisites are and instead of making them the prerequisite of a class, make them the prerequisite of a feat. If we did this, then in theory you could gain all the class abilities of a PrC just by taking feats.

If you do that though, what you discover is that the whole point of PrC's that they give you more feats, skills, and other advantages than any base class is otherwise eligible for, and so the real 'purpose' behind a PrC from a mechanical perspective is simply to give characters something for nothing.

I'd love to see some examples of this. My look at prestige classes is that for giving up something the base classes give you, you get something else.

My look at prestige classes is that any prestige class that actually demands you give up something that the base classes give you is simply never taken. Instead, PrC's are taken if they force you to give up things that you were going to give up anyway, and in return they give you back double. They are like Magic the Gathering cards with false or broken symmetry, where the thing you give up is not something you mind giving up anyway - like discarding a card with madness to a wild mongrel.

I see prestige classes as alternative base classes.

Then they should be base classes.

It reminds me of MMORPGs. After you get to a certain level, its time to get more specific. Yes it is nice that you are a rogue, but now you have th e option of having a prestige class that more defines you.

MMORPG? More defines you? You mean, after you get to a certain level its time to take a class which offers you greater power and abilities. We are talking MMORPG's here. For the most part they aren't exactly about characterization.

SURE you could put some skills in diplomacy and such, but why gain abilities you no longer wish for when you can easily switch to a prc that better defines what you want the character to be.

And what is that anyway?

1. They are great goal drivers for players. This is my favorite reason for prestige classes as they push characters to strive for something more than what they currently are.

Good grief, you think players have trouble doing this? I've never heard a player say he didn't want to level up. Have you ever been a player and said, "Oh, ho hum, I've got to level up again."

They ahve a reason for gaining experience...

What wierd game are you in in which players don't have a reason for gaining experience?

They specify characters.

No, they overly specify characters. Instead of letting the player decide what the character is like, they decide for the player what his character is going to be like. You've got it backwards. PrC's don't let the player fit his character to a concept. PrC's give the player a concept to fit his character too. And speaking of which...

AGain, i require my players to pick one after eight level and by the latest tenth level.

I read that and I knew immediately that we are so far apart on this that we are just never going to agree. I would never require my players to choose a particular class. And if every character is going to be forced into a PrC, how in the world are they prestigious anyway? How in the world is that making character creation more flexible? You aren't letting PrC's fill niches. You're pigeonholing characters into the niches.

There are a TON of special abilities for prestige classes that are just not in feats and skills.

Only because they were created that way. There are none that can't be feats.

Again I ask for evidience, to prove that a prestige can be created using just feats.

Give me a PrC and I'll do it.

They are great ways to create great role playing content, and ideas for DMs. I have NEVER opened up a prestige class and saw a bunch of mechanics.

Maybe not, but I get the feeling that players do. Also, I don't need PrC's to create role playing content. I've got more role playing content in my head than I'll ever use, much less get written down.

Alot of the time its full of great flavor.

And here is exactly one of the places I have problem with PrC's. I don't want flavor tied to the classes. I want the class system to be as invisible in my game universe as possible. I want the classes to be as generic and flexible as possible. I'll let the flavor and the player's RP define the flavor, not the mechanics. And heck, who says that the flavor is going to fit with my ideas anyway?

In real life, a person IS defined by what they do so why not in a game.

Again, here is where we completely depart. I'm more than a set of statistics and skills. My essential being is more than what I'm good at.

What you do is a big part of your character.

But what you do means so much more than your abilities. It's literally what you have done - the choices you've made in your life, the events that have happened to you, the beliefs that you hold, the people you care about. You might could argue that I am to a large extent the product of what I have done, but that's entirely different as defining me as my abilities.

Again with the rogue example, If i'm a diplomate, I want more diplomat type abilties. Sneak attacking 4d6 is not really defining who i am. Yes I COULD just put alot of skills in diplomacy, bluff forgery and go with the diplomacy angle, but why? when I can flip open to a prestige class "Noble" (New blackmoor book) and have something that truly fits my character.

Or you could just figure out ten or so broad base classes and a long list of feats, and then you wouldn't need the 'Noble' PrC. Instead, you could start out as a 1st level Noble.

I"m pretty sure if they are so much the bane of the game, they wouldn't be included in EVERY single d20 text that comes out.

LOL. Really, you are going to have to limit this argument of utility to circumstances when it really applies. This isn't one of them. I'm pretty sure that even if Weapon Specialization and the other options in Unearthed Arcana were horrible for the balance of the game, that they got used by most groups anyway and were really really popular. That doesn't mean that Weapon Specialization as it was presented in UA represented good design.

I don't think anything can limit creativity. A person only limits creativty themselves when they fear looking beyond the veil.

Yeah, but what makes you think that PrC's aren't that veil?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Give me a PrC and I'll do it.

Shadowdancer.

 

[shilsen]

How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless ooze.

 

[DonTadow]

Ok, fine. It would be nice if you actually addressed some of the points I made when differing, but you are free to differ without doing so.



Yeah, that's what I said.



I don't either, but that's not exactly what I said. I said that every prestige classes class abilities could be made into a feat. In fact, the simple way to do this would be simply look at what the prestige classes prerequisites are and instead of making them the prerequisite of a class, make them the prerequisite of a feat. If we did this, then in theory you could gain all the class abilities of a PrC just by taking feats.

If you do that though, what you discover is that the whole point of PrC's that they give you more feats, skills, and other advantages than any base class is otherwise eligible for, and so the real 'purpose' behind a PrC from a mechanical perspective is simply to give characters something for nothing.



My look at prestige classes is that any prestige class that actually demands you give up something that the base classes give you is simply never taken. Instead, PrC's are taken if they force you to give up things that you were going to give up anyway, and in return they give you back double. They are like Magic the Gathering cards with false or broken symmetry, where the thing you give up is not something you mind giving up anyway - like discarding a card with madness to a wild mongrel.



Then they should be base classes.



MMORPG? More defines you? You mean, after you get to a certain level its time to take a class which offers you greater power and abilities. We are talking MMORPG's here. For the most part they aren't exactly about characterization.



And what is that anyway?



Good grief, you think players have trouble doing this? I've never heard a player say he didn't want to level up. Have you ever been a player and said, "Oh, ho hum, I've got to level up again."



What wierd game are you in in which players don't have a reason for gaining experience?



No, they overly specify characters. Instead of letting the player decide what the character is like, they decide for the player what his character is going to be like. You've got it backwards. PrC's don't let the player fit his character to a concept. PrC's give the player a concept to fit his character too. And speaking of which...



I read that and I knew immediately that we are so far apart on this that we are just never going to agree. I would never require my players to choose a particular class. And if every character is going to be forced into a PrC, how in the world are they prestigious anyway? How in the world is that making character creation more flexible? You aren't letting PrC's fill niches. You're pigeonholing characters into the niches.



Only because they were created that way. There are none that can't be feats.



Give me a PrC and I'll do it.



Maybe not, but I get the feeling that players do. Also, I don't need PrC's to create role playing content. I've got more role playing content in my head than I'll ever use, much less get written down.



And here is exactly one of the places I have problem with PrC's. I don't want flavor tied to the classes. I want the class system to be as invisible in my game universe as possible. I want the classes to be as generic and flexible as possible. I'll let the flavor and the player's RP define the flavor, not the mechanics. And heck, who says that the flavor is going to fit with my ideas anyway?



Again, here is where we completely depart. I'm more than a set of statistics and skills. My essential being is more than what I'm good at.



But what you do means so much more than your abilities. It's literally what you have done - the choices you've made in your life, the events that have happened to you, the beliefs that you hold, the people you care about. You might could argue that I am to a large extent the product of what I have done, but that's entirely different as defining me as my abilities.



Or you could just figure out ten or so broad base classes and a long list of feats, and then you wouldn't need the 'Noble' PrC. Instead, you could start out as a 1st level Noble.



LOL. Really, you are going to have to limit this argument of utility to circumstances when it really applies. This isn't one of them. I'm pretty sure that even if Weapon Specialization and the other options in Unearthed Arcana were horrible for the balance of the game, that they got used by most groups anyway and were really really popular. That doesn't mean that Weapon Specialization as it was presented in UA represented good design.



Yeah, but what makes you think that PrC's aren't that veil?

I could go back, take apart everything you said and we can be going at this all night. Like you said, we're on opposite sides of this issue and a lot of your rebuttal is similiar and returning the proof of burden back on me. I do want to clear up some things so not be taken out of context. You assumed our basic argument for PRCs is that they add to roll playing, I differed because i think it is the four examples I gave in my argument.


It doesnt make any sense to argue against your points because we'd go back and forth. And as a debater I always ask do you have a better way, and you think you do.

So, let's talk about your solution, this feats thing. Essentially take all the special abilities of a prestige, strip them and make them feats. The negatives are obvious, we throw away the flavor of the prestige and the way it can more define a class. (because that's not important according to your argument?). We also throw away additional skills that prestige's can provide to define the class as well. (again from your argument this is not important)

Now we got some obstacles and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'd say its pretty easy to get past the first obstacle, which is balancing the feats, we'd just put in a bunch of level requirements and make sure that some feats are prereqs for other feats.

we still have the problem of having 500 to 1000 feats to chose from during character creation. Not to mention cross referencing them to make sure that certain ones meet the prereqs of others . Instead of opening a prestige reading a paragraph and moving on, you want us to read and make rules for 100s of feats. Then you want game developers to be the ones to make sure these feats all work well together. HOnestly this sounds like chaos to me. SUre you're not limiting the player anymore (I never thought asking a player to define his character more was limiting but hey) but now you've opened up pandora's box.

How is this going to be managed?

 

[Celebrim]

Shadowdancer.

Gladly.

New Feats
----------

Hide in Shadows (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You may use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as you are within 10 feet of an area which is shadowy, you can hide from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. Note that you cannot hide in your own shadow, or within any similarly small shadow in an otherwise brightly lit area.

Night Eyes (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You gain Darkvision 60'. If you already have Darkvision, the range of your Darkvision improves by 60'.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Shadow Illusion (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Hide in Shadows, Mobility, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks
Benefit: Whenever you are in an shadowy area, you may employ the spell silent image as a spell like ability. You may use this ability one time per day.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you may employ the feat one additional time per day.

Shadow Mastery (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Hide in Shadows, Mobility, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks
Benefit: You can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches your alignment, and cannot spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to you and can communicate intelligibly with you.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or you choose to dismiss it, you must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, you loses 100 experience points per HD of the shadow. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 50 XP per HD of the shadow.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, your shadow companions gain a bonus 2HD.

Shadow Jump (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Hide in Shadows, Mobility, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks
Benefit: You gain the ability to travel between shadowy areas as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an shadowy area. You can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, the total distance you may jump per day doubles. For example, if you have taken this feat three times you may jump 160' feet each day in this way.

Defensive Roll (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Evasion Class ability, Uncanny Dodge class ability, base Reflex save at least +8
Once per day as an extraordinary ability, when you would be reduced to 0 hit points or less by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), you can attempt to roll with the damage. You make a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt) and, if successful, takes only half damage from the blow. You must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute a defensive roll. If you are in a situation that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC, you can’t attempt a defensive roll.
Special: Rogues may take Defensive Roll as a bonus ability even if they do not meet the prerequisites for the feat. See the description of the Rogue class.

Slippery Mind (General)
Prerequisite: Evasion Class ability, Uncanny Dodge class ability, base Reflex save at least +9
Benefit: If you are affected by an enchantment and fail you saving throw, 1 round later you can attempt your saving throw again. You only gets this one extra chance to succeed at your saving throw. If it fails as well, the spell’s effects occur normally.
Special: Rogues may take Slippery Mind as a bonus ability even if they do not meet the prerequisites for the feat. See the description of the Rogue class.

Improved Evasion (General)
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Evasion Class ability, Uncanny Dodge class ability, base Reflex save at least +11
Benefit: As per the Evasion ability except, you take no damage at all on successful saving throws against attacks that allow a Reflex saving throw for half damage. What’s more, you take only half damage even if you fails your saving throw.
Special: Rogues may take Improved Evasion as a bonus ability even if they do not meet the prerequisites for the feat. See the description of the Rogue class.

There. Now you can build a Shadow Dancer even without the PrC. Sure, you probably have to take at least a few levels of Rogue or a similar class, but 99% percent of the time you were going to do that anyway (at least I've never seen anyone present a Shadow Dancer on these boards that didn't). Of course, some of the abilities are rather weak, and in particular I'm think that Shadow Illusion and Shadow Mastery would probably work better if we combined them into one single feat (since each is probably only worth at most one half feat). What's more though is that if your concept doesn't include turning shadows into illusions, you can just skip that part, and if say you want to play a Sorcerous Shadow Dancer then you can make all the silent images you want using the normal spell abiities of that class and not have to give up your spell progression. In fact, go ahead and take the Umbran Bloodline feat, and get shadowy abilities added to your known spells.

 

[Quasqueton]

To say most people ignore it as a houserule is a big assumption. I don't and I don't know any DM's i play with whom don't. Once you start ignoring rules it can unbalance other areas of the game, which may be the problem some are having with prestige classes.

By the RAW, prestige classes cause the 20% xp penalty just like normal multiclassing. So if you are going to say houseruling out the penalty for normal multiclassing doesn't count for this argument, you can't houserule out the prestige class penalty either.

Quasqueton

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

From the SRD

 

[Felon]

Right, PrC's should impose the 20% XP penalty, despite the obvious fact that they will quite often cause most character builds to inevitably suck up the penalty. No possibility it was just an omission, right?

Those who would opt to eschew common sense completely in favor of RAW would do well to familiarize themselves with all published errata and rules clarifications on a regular basis. Here's a passage from the Official v3.5 D&D FAQ:

In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels
in a prestige class never caused you to pay the experience
penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven
class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when
checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on
prestige classes in the new Dungeon Master’s Guide no
longer mentions that you don’t suffer an experience penalty
for having levels in a prestige class. Is this a change or an
error?

It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give
you an experience penalty.

 

[Quasqueton]

Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

The DMG does not have this statement, nor is it in the DMG errata. Technically, it is a commonly accepted and officially endorsed house rule.

Unless you want to say the SRD are the actual/official/real rules. Then divine abilities and psionics become core. And experience points don't exist.



Quasqueton