Do published modules have to follow the d20 rules strictly?

Psion said:


So why not give it class levels? It drives me batty when d20 products (any, not just adventures) create new rules for doing stuff that you can do with existing rules.

Class/Levels have other side-effects than just granting skill points. ie: increase in Hit Dice, BAB, new feats, etc.

If all you are trying to do is grant the monster an idiosyncratic level of aptitude in a skill, why beef him up all over and raise his CR in the process?

I've gone both routes in my recent campaign with two Xvart NPCs. One is a total badass and has 16 levels of druid and a wererat template, and a CR around 22 (I never actually calculated it, I don't use CR, so 22 is just a guestimate.).
The other is a 'normal' xvart who has an incredible knowledge of the sewers and undercity of the city of Cryllor (in Greyhawk). This one wasn't supposed to be some uber-NPC ally of the party, in fact, she is supposed to be the sniveling, pathetic weakling that the party really hates having to defend and coddle all the time, but her knowledge of the undercity is profound enough to make it worth their time. I did something similar to what Merric suggested, and just gave her 8 ranks in Knowledge: Cryllor Undercity (which is exactly 8 more rankis than anyone in the party has in that skill :) ).

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, there is a time when the 3e mechanics are suited to the job, and a time when tweaking the rules a bit is more appropriate.
 

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I think that twigging and tweaking is fine in a home-made adventure. Odds are that the ad-hoc changes you are making are ones that enhance your game, or at the very least let you gloss over some of the weak aspects of your game. In any case, you will only be making changes that fit your groups style of play so you can't go too far wrong and have no one to blame but yourself if you do. I have no problem with that.

Published adventures are a bit different. I expect a certain baseline, a standardization in the rules-- the same standard I have deviated from slightly for my house rules, or my style of play. If an adventure uses a different variation of the rules then I will have to do even more work than usual -- I already know the implications of my house rules on the core rules, now I have to rethink them in terms of a new development. I expect this sort of thing if an adventure is clearly marked as a Scarred Lands adventure or an Iron Kingdoms adventure, but if it is suposedly generic, I expect it to be generic.

Now, sometimes I think that rules tweaking can add flavor, but most times I just think that it is lazy design. (Again, this only applies to published adventures where the author is being paid so *I* can be lazy.) The Stone Giant with +12 in craft --and I'm not sure why you would need that number exactly, but I'll get back to that -- seems to be a bit problematic. But not really too much. I wouldn't go with expert levels, I would use commoner levels, they have Craft as a class skill as well.

Eight levels of commoner would only add +4 BAB and +2 to all saves, and barely enough skill points to max out craft. Technically, this would increase the CR of the giant by 7, which is really misleading if the PCs are just expected to fight it. If anything this is where the ad-hoc tweaking comes in to lower the effective CR. (But state explicitly what is being done, so the DM knows that it was done deliberately and why.)

If you want to compensate for the higher BAB, you can lower the Giant's strength by four points. Only that much, though, because your nerfing the damage as well. Not all giants have the exact same ability scores; those found in the MM are just averages and norms. Or if this giant is primarily a crafter rather than a warrior, don't give him a club, give him a big solid oak chair. He'll be -4 to hit because he isn't proficient in fighting with chairs. That will cancel out the extra BAB from the commoner levels, but the size and sturdiness of the chair will justify a damage die simmilar to that of a club (and besides, most of a giant's damage comes from the strength modifier anyways).

Now, this is of course taken out of context, and the problem might be more or less difficult to solve depending on the actual context. Why +12? Is it just for flavor? Will +4 suffice? If the stone giant needs to be able to create a specific item for the players and the DC is 22, then a +12 modifier would allow the giant to make the item at the first attempt by taking 10. Fair enough. Changing the item that the PCs need so that the DC is lower, and switching off monster skill points might be easier than adding commoner levels, though. Or at least lowering it to a point where one commoner level will do the trick (no BAB, or Save bonus, 8 skill points) will really just save a ton of hassles.

Just my two cents... well, 4 cents maybe, if you go by bulk rather than quality.

Cheers
 


Eight levels of commoner would only add +4 BAB and +2 to all saves, and barely enough skill points to max out craft. Technically, this would increase the CR of the giant by 7, which is really misleading if the PCs are just expected to fight it. If anything this is where the ad-hoc tweaking comes in to lower the effective CR.

True, but that thumbrule does not work at all well for commoners and experts. I don't really think that you will increase its combat capabilities enough to warrant a 7 level increase in "appropriate opposition."
 

To stick with the rules for the giant you have a bunch of options.

1 Add 1 level of expert, he dumps the skill points from that level all into his craft/artistic skill, his bab and cr do not go up, he gets a +2 on will saves and a d6 HD (plus con which could be significant however).

2 Swap around one of his combat feats for skill focus craft skill.

3 Bump up his Int a lot. This will give him more skill points but no real combat advantage.

4 Swap around some of his monster skill points to cross class craft skill.

Going more creatively:

Give a back story for how he was blessed by a god or got some strange magic (like a tome) that only affected his art skills and just give him the ranks with no balancing mechanic but no real power increase.

Or just give it to him. Crafting art is not that big a deal and most PCs won't notice the inconsistency because they can't actually see his stats.

In an adventure I would prefer any but the last, but as a DM or PC I would accept the last one in a gmae because it is easy and minor. If making up the npc giant artist on the fly that is probably the way to go.
 

chatdemon said:
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, there is a time when the 3e mechanics are suited to the job, and a time when tweaking the rules a bit is more appropriate.

And I'm just saying: some people do it with too little justification.
 

Psion said:


True, but that thumbrule does not work at all well for commoners and experts. I don't really think that you will increase its combat capabilities enough to warrant a 7 level increase in "appropriate opposition."

I agree completely that the CR system for NPCs is wonky to begin with. I think that a lowering of the CR is more justified than a free (and freeform) distribution of skill points, as long as there is an appropriate footnote to the statblock. So if the DM decides that the real challenge is a cage-match "Craft-Off" between the PCs and the Giant then there will be a reminder that the CR should be raised to its standard level.

I mean, this is an innocuous example. But I think that few people would argue that writers should just give out skill points willy-nilly. If we were talking about giving a free +12 to spot or tumble it would be a different story -- the PCs would notice that and wonder where the heck these skill points came from. At best the writer is cutting corners, at worst some might call it cheating.

Cheers.
 

This specific example, adding non-combat skills to a character (or monster), demonstrates why we should have noncombatant classes that don't add to BAB, Hit Dice, and Saves. Imagine how cleanly you could add "flavor" skills with a class consisting of just skill points -- a true NPC Expert. After all, there's no reason a Stone Giant (or Human) who's studied sculpture should have more Hit Points.
 

mmadsen said:
This specific WANGER, adding non-combat WANGERS to a WANGER (or WANGER), demonstrates why we should WANGER noncombatant WANGERS that don't add to WANGER, Hit WANGERS, and WANGERS. Imagine how cleanly you could add "WANGER" skills with a WANGER consisting of just WANGER points -- a true NPC WANGER. After all, there's no WANGER a Stone WANGER (or Human) who's studied WANGERS should have more WANGER Points.


La la LA la la I CAN'T HEAR YOU
 

Published D20 products SHOULD conform to the standard rules. The rules are flexible. There are many ways to create the desired effect, it just takes a good understanding of the monster rules and the NPC classes.

I was not very happy when I bought "Rappan Athuk I" thinking it looked cool and then realized that essentially none of the original creatures and NPCs in the product conformed to the rules set out in the core books. The book is truly poorly edited. Spell Mastery gives wizards additional spell slots in the product, for instance. Just about every orc and goblin NPC has a human's extra feat and skill points. An undead villain has hit points as though he had a +2 Con bonus. New monsters' spell-like abilities' DCs are set abritrarily high. The list goes on.

In older editions of D&D, this would have been fine, since most monsters and magic were created arbritrarily. Now there is a unified system of rules for doing things. The DM has rules now, and players have expectations based on those rules. Saying, "it's magic" or "it's just this monster's special ability" doesn't cut it anymore.
 
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The 'rules' are guidelines. No matter how hard you try to make them etched in stone, they are not.

I would recommend you try to stick as closely to the 'rules' as possible but if it is impossible to use them, then alter to your heart's content. Give the DM a warning of the change so that if he chooses not to use it as published he is aware of it from the beginning. You could also give him an alternate approved encounter.

If a DM can't deal with that and decides to complain that is his problem.

I'd rather see an interesting encounter than a 100% 'rules' approved encounter. This is not a :):):):)ing court trial, its a game. I can alter anything if I need to. If you provide me with an alternate you even make it easier for me to choose how to use it.
 

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