D&D 3E/3.5 Do racial hit dice count for epic status? (3.5)

[Grazzt]

Do racial hit dice count for epic status? I'm mainly asking this because of the dragons in the Draconomicon--those with racial hit dice over 20 keep a straight progression of BAB and saves instead of following the epic rules...

Other examples:
- The tarrasque
- Elder elementals (of any type)

Racial HD count for epic status (in that they help determine when a monster is epic). They do not follow the epic level rules for BAB, saves, etc. A 40 HD outsider (fighter BAB) has a +40 base attack bonus (and base saves of +22). A 100 HD magical beast (again fighter BAB) has a +100 BAB (and good saves of +52, poor save +33).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Demonstrably untrue. ...
Note the qualifiers: "most commonly" and "can."

That's your demonstration? The second sentence of your quote containing "most commonly" has no such ambiguous words in it. It's clear that the only monsters who can advance in character classes are those that specifically have it in their advancement line. The only ambiguous part is whether you allow monsters to increase in HD even if the advancement line only lists By character class (I'd support either interpretation, but this point is not relevant to this discussion).

Besides, if only those creatures who had "By Character Class" as their advancement line could take classes, then why would we have a discussion of what happens when a spellcasting dragon takes sorceror levels, or http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050510a ?

Er, because people like to discuss them, and adding class levels to any monster is so prevalent a houserule that everyone takes it as an actual rule? Even WotC with their examples. If you argue that the example makes the rule, then we just have to disagree.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Creatures that fall into this category" = "Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape."

And, no, it's not clear. If it was clear, it would say, "Only those creatures so noted can advance by taking character class levels."

It doesn't say that, the only "hard" text speaks in generalities and permissiveness, rather than specifying exactly what limits exist, and therefore it is far from clear.

And, as Grazzt points out:

Advancement: 9–16 HD (Huge); 17–24 HD (Gargantuan)

Aboleth Mage, 10th-Level Wizard

And if it's in the MM, it ain't a house rule.

 

[Grazzt]

It's clear that the only monsters who can advance in character classes are those that specifically have it in their advancement line.

Nope. Check my previous posts above. There are examples in the MM (and the SRD) and probably MM3 (dont have it handy...cant check) of monsters who normally advance by HD advancing by character class (see the Aboleth or Hound Archon as I said above).

Er, because people like to discuss them, and adding class levels to any monster is so prevalent a houserule that everyone takes it as an actual rule? Even WotC with their examples. If you argue that the example makes the rule, then we just have to disagree.

Depends on if you consider the examples in the MM houserules. If so, cool. If you consider what ever WotC does as canon/how the rules work/the only way to do it/whatever...cool too. Each to their own. Whatever makes ya happy. Im simply pointing out the incorrect statement made above about "only monsters with 'by character class' can advance using class levels" Thats obviously not the case.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And, no, it's not clear. If it was clear, it would say, "Only those creatures so noted can advance by taking character class levels."

That's what it does say. Let me point it out from the actual quote: "Creatures that fall into this category [i.e. those who can advance by character class] have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line."

And if it's in the MM, it ain't a house rule.

Except when an example contradicts the text. Then, we have to throw one or the other out as an actual rule. And, it's clear that text trumps examples and tables. Yes, I do consider the aboleth example a houserule, despite the fact it's printed in the MM; though technically I consider it an error.

So that you don't think I'm just being difficult here, let me clarify my position. Yes, I would consider using it in my game (and have used it), but only as a monster, and only in very exceptional circumstances. For the most part, despite the effort on WotC's part, I think the advancement rules and/or monster improvement guidelines are quite lacking. I think (hope) 4.0 will have a significant improvement in this area, allowing for instance racial HD (i.e. advance by HD) for everyone and also allow advancement by character class for anyone with Int 3 or above.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's what it does say. Let me point it out from the actual quote: "Creatures that fall into this category [i.e. those who can advance by character class] have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line."

Er, no, it doesn't. It clearly means "Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape [that] most commonly advance by adding class levels."

Notice, as you go through the MM, that those are the only ones who specifically have a line of "Advancement: By character class," other than those creatures which are statted twice with an alternate version.

They are:

Aboleth Wizard (which you don't like as an example)
Aranea (shapeshifts into a humanoid form)
Hound Arcon (which has both a HD advancement and a Paladin version)
Azer
Bugbear
Centaur
Derro
Doppelganger
Drider
Dryad
Dwarf
Elf
Ettin
Giant (all varieties)
Gnoll
Gnome
Goblin
Grimlock
Hag (all varieties)
Halfling
Harpy
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Lich
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Lycanthopes (all varieties)
Medusa
Merfolk
Minotaur
Mummy (base with HD advancement, mummy cleric with class level advancement)
Ogre
Ogre Mage
Orc
Planetouched (all varieties)
Rakshasa
Sahaugin (which have both HD and class advancement lines)
Tarrasque
Troglodyte
Troll (note that the troll hunter, a 6th-level ranger, does not have an advancement line)
Unicorn, Celestial Charger
Vampire

 

[Biffoniacus Furious]

Racial HD never use the epic progression for BAB or Base Saves. A creature's first 20 Class Levels always use the class progression for BAB and Base Saves, regardless of Hit Dice. Only when a creature hits 21 Class Levels does it begin using the epic progressions for BAB and Base Saves, and then only for Class Levels, never Racial Hit Dice.

Example: MM3, Eldritch Giant Confessor
The Eldritch Giant has 25 HD of Giant, which grants a +18 BAB. The Confessor has an additional 11 levels of Cleric, with a +26 BAB, which means it used the Cleric progression for BAB. This wasn't changed in the errata, therefore it is correct.

Whoever wrote the epic characters section of the DMG either didn't know what they were doing, or completely forgot to take racial HD into account.

 

[Alzrius]

Racial HD never use the epic progression for BAB or Base Saves. A creature's first 20 Class Levels always use the class progression for BAB and Base Saves, regardless of Hit Dice. Only when a creature hits 21 Class Levels does it begin using the epic progressions for BAB and Base Saves, and then only for Class Levels, never Racial Hit Dice.

Example: MM3, Eldritch Giant Confessor
The Eldritch Giant has 25 HD of Giant, which grants a +18 BAB. The Confessor has an additional 11 levels of Cleric, with a +26 BAB, which means it used the Cleric progression for BAB. This wasn't changed in the errata, therefore it is correct.

Whoever wrote the epic characters section of the DMG either didn't know what they were doing, or completely forgot to take racial HD into account.

The MMIII is not the best source to cite for error-free examples.

LA should never be use to determine whether an NPC is epic or not. Hit dice is what matter (ergo templates tend not to count for whether or not a creature is epic). Once they have twenty hit dice from any source, any class levels gained used the epic progression for BAB and saves, while racial hit dice remain unchanged.

Just because the errata overlooks an error doesn't mean the error must therefore be correct (just look at all the monsters in the MM who still have incorrect skill points).