Do sleeping characters get saving throws?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.

Bound characters are helpless.
Sleeping characters are helpless.
Bound characters get no Reflex save.

It does not logically follow that sleeping characters get no Reflex save.

If you look carefully at the wording of that 2nd paragraph, you should notice it is possible for a non-helpless character to be denied a Reflex save. Strictly speaking, helplessness has no direct connection to Reflex saves as the rules are written. In fact, that third paragraphs strongly implies that Reflex saves are always automatic except when physically impossible.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come. It also opens up a can of worms. It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back. Unless you know your players are going to deal well with it, I'd just skip it altogether.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

From the SRD:



It is on the 2nd paragraph that I base my decision that sleeping characters wouldn't get a Reflex Save (as I consider the sleeping character "bound" unless he should become aware of the danger). Again, I would give a chance to wake up, and if it was going to cause a lot of death I might allow the Save with the -5 penalty just to reflex them instinctively waking and diving for cover at the last moment.

IceBear

That seems to go against paragraph three that you quoted. which states that the character need not be aware to get a reflex save since it is instinctive. Just because you are sleeping that doesn't mean you don't have room to move.
In general I am against anything that will completely deny a character a save when he normally would get one. However I have no problem with putting a stiff penalty on that character (ie -5 to reflex for being asleep) for example.

This to me is similar to not allowing a character a Will Save when they are mentally dominated. Since they don't have free control of their will/mind they shouldn't be allowed to make saves against other mind based attacks.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[ForceUser]

I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come. It also opens up a can of worms. It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back. Unless you know your players are going to deal well with it, I'd just skip it altogether.

My players are adults. They can keep it in character.

 

[IceBear]

I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.

Bound characters are helpless.
Sleeping characters are helpless.
Bound characters get no Reflex save.

It does not logically follow that sleeping characters get no Reflex save.

If you look carefully at the wording of that 2nd paragraph, you should notice it is possible for a non-helpless character to be denied a Reflex save. Strictly speaking, helplessness has no direct connection to Reflex saves as the rules are written. In fact, that third paragraphs strongly implies that Reflex saves are always automatic except when physically impossible.

I concur, but it flies in the face of all logic (I know logic has no bearing on D&D, but this is one area that I couldn't live with this) that someone who is held by hold person could evade 100% of a fireball spell if they couldn't even move and weren't protected by some magic. I know that some people would say it's magic and the rogue's training allows him to resist the magic, and that's fine. It just doesn't work for me.

Thus, a might allow a saving throw with a big penalty to simulate the PCs waking up at the last second and reacting to the spell, but I would prefer to have them detect it through other means, waking up, and then dealing with it.

IceBear

 

[TiQuinn]

My players are adults. They can keep it in character.

Go for it then. Do you expect to take any of the characters out with it? Like the mage, for instance?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless.

True, but any NPC who has a fireball spell and is hunting an adventuring party at night is likely to be able to pull of a fireball from range, even with guards posted. Denying the saving throw increases the effectiveness of an already brutal tactic by a lot.

Getting hit by a Fireball on any surprise round is bad enough. Do we really need to find loopholes in the rules to make a TPK likely?

 

[IceBear]

That seems to go against paragraph three that you quoted. which states that the character need not be aware to get a reflex save since it is instinctive. Just because you are sleeping that doesn't mean you don't have room to move.
In general I am against anything that will completely deny a character a save when he normally would get one. However I have no problem with putting a stiff penalty on that character (ie -5 to reflex for being asleep) for example.

This to me is similar to not allowing a character a Will Save when they are mentally dominated. Since they don't have free control of their will/mind they shouldn't be allowed to make saves against other mind based attacks.


Just my 2 cents.

Ok, I guess I wasn't clear on how much I was willing to give the PCs in terms of detecting the spell first before it went off (so no one realized that it wasn't as harsh as it seems, but....), so I could go with just the Dex 0 for sleeping characters.

However, I would not give a save for held or magically sleeping characters as others would do when this was last brought up. I think that I went too far in anticipation of this thread than just answering the question.

If the party was just sleeping, then they get the Save with Dex 0 to simulate waking up.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

True, but any NPC who has a fireball spell and is hunting an adventuring party at night is likely to be able to pull of a fireball from range, even with guards posted. Denying the saving throw increases the effectiveness of an already brutal tactic by a lot.

Getting hit by a Fireball on any surprise round is bad enough. Do we really need to find loopholes in the rules to make a TPK likely?

But that's what I said eariler. I'm using DM's descretion here. If it looks like it would be a TPK then I'd give the Reflex Save with a penalty. If it would just be an annoyance, then I'd probably just go with the Listen check and have them wake up and make the save.

As I stated in my last post, I wasn't clear on how many "breaks" I was willing to give the party and in order to be consistent I would allow naturally asleep characters to have a Save with Dex 0 to simulate them waking and reacting at the last moment.

If, however, they can't react - held or magically asleep - then no save.

PS - I normally don't go out of my way to prevent saves and this has never happened in my group in case anyone gets the wrong idea.

IceBear

 

[ForceUser]

Go for it then. Do you expect to take any of the characters out with it? Like the mage, for instance?

The example I used was hypothetical. My players read this board If I had a sneaky eveeeelll bad guy who really wanted to put the group to task, however, I could see him flying up invisible and unleashing a maximized empowered fireball in the middle of the sleeping PCs. Yeah, I'd imagine there'd be a few deaths