Do Sleeping people make Will saves?

[Hypersmurf]

However, in your argument, Enlarging an unconscious target is different than slapping a cure on them and not because one spell is harmless and the other isn't. A Cure is a Will save, so, they would automatically be subject to it while unconscious. An Enlarge spell is a Fort save, so they would get a save while unconscious whether they wanted one or not I would imagine.

Ah, but my argument doesn't change if we swap Enlarge Person for Detect Thoughts.

They may be a willing target, but that doesn't mean they voluntarily give up their saving throw. It means they satisfy the requirements of a spell that only affects willing targets.

There is no connection between a willing target designation, and voluntarily giving up a Will save. They just happen to have a similar syllable.

My only disagreement was with Egres stating that Reflex saves could be made while immobile. If that's his opinion and he wants to throw common sense (and a law or two of physics) out the window for his games, more power to him! But a helpless (immobile) target cannot avoid a CDG, why should they be allowed to make a Reflex save to avoid an incoming spell or other effect? Just because someone forgot to include, "Helpless or immobile targets cannot make Reflex saving throws," in the PHB or DMG?

He's quoting from the 3.5 Main FAQ, p17:

"If you're helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is -5. You're helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep."

As it happens, I disagree with that FAQ answer, but that's where he's getting it from.

That's no different than letting a character make a Reflex save when in a 10'X10'X10' empty room with no immediate exits or any kind of cover and a fireball detonates.

Ah, now that, I agree with completely. You don't leave your square when making a Reflex save against a fireball normally, so why should being in a small room make a difference?

If you were squeezing in a 2.5' tunnel, per the text of Evasion, you'd be denied a Reflex save. But not being in a 10' room. The character in question can make a Reflex save just fine.

-Hyp.

 

[Hannibal Barca]

I'm confused. If unconscious targets are willing but allowed Will saves, why would't all cure spells require a save? Is it because they are harmless?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm confused. If unconscious targets are willing but allowed Will saves, why would't all cure spells require a save? Is it because they are harmless?

Exactly. The text of the (harmless) descriptor says "a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires".

Normally, if something has a save, you attempt the save unless you voluntarily give up the saving throw. But if it's (harmless), you don't attempt the save unless you choose to.

Since you're unconscious, you can't make that choice, so you don't atetmpt the save.

-Hyp.

 

[Egres]

Just a note:

My only disagreement was with Egres stating that Reflex saves could be made while immobile. If that's his opinion and he wants to throw common sense (and a law or two of physics) out the window for his games, more power to him!

I never said that i would use those rules.

When you see my posts, be prepared to see only rules, not my opinions on how should a good way of gaming be.

That's how i like to post.

Nothing more.